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Lastly please try not to put real life versus the fantasy world. As they mentioned. You put a living being in liquid hot magma and submerse them i dont care what level they are they are crispy critter.That just means there is a fixed level cap in reality.
Oh and lifeforms do exist inside nuclear reactors, so I doubt that nothing can live in lava.
Oh i didnt meant to compare Extremophilic microbes to a more rational discussion. Silly me. They cant survive lava though either. and thats my point, trying to compare the two is a silly exercise. Sure... the radiation doesnt effect them. Are you really trying to compare bacterium, microbes and other simular organisms to the fantastical creatures in the discussion?
I would actually argue that martial characters should have powerful feats that become high-end as they level, regardless if they initially took it at level 18 or level 2.So, another nice thing martial characters should have is powerful high end feats that are not behind walls of prerequisites.
(what the heck does Ray Shield have to do with Disruptive/Spellbreaker that the latter is a prerequisite for the former?)
Also attractive.
Also attractive.I would actually argue that martial characters should have powerful feats that become high-end as they level, regardless if they initially took it at level 18 or level 2.So, another nice thing martial characters should have is powerful high end feats that are not behind walls of prerequisites.
(what the heck does Ray Shield have to do with Disruptive/Spellbreaker that the latter is a prerequisite for the former?)
I don't think martials need cha requirements.
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Feat Chains need to be done away with all together.
Combat Feats should just scale with level.
Everyone should be able to attempt a Trip Maneuver. People who invest a Feat in tripping things should unlock more perks to tripping as they level up.
Weapon Focus should just automatically become Greater Weapon Focus at 8th level.
As a note, this is a great reference for why Power Attack is such an amazing feat. It already scales by level.
Imagine if each "upgrade" of Power Attack was a separate feat. Improved Power Attack would let you take a -2 attack for +4 to damage. Greater would get you -3 for +6. Imagine if it was a chain.
Power Attack is so good that people would still pay for all those extra feats. If that's the way it had always been, the majority of players wouldn't even bat an eye at the cost. The benefits are worth it.
Luckily, some designer said "why should players have to pay all those feats? Why not just make it all into one feat that scales?"
If we can do that with a feat as useful and ubiquitous as Power Attack, why not with others?
Everyone CAN attempt a trip, improved trip just makes that easier. . .
Bingo. That's how I'd do it as well. Thanks Kyrt.
Everyone CAN attempt a trip, improved trip just makes that easier. . .
Possible. Remember, damage you take from provoking that AoO is also a penalty applied to your CMB. So eating 15 damage trying to make a trip makes it kinda impossible yeah?
TheNine: with modern carrying techniques (masterwork backpack) qnd the first outfit being "free", 276 pounds total is at the very edge of a heavy load for a str 16 character. So it seems quite a good fit, unless you often did headstands in that.
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Everyone CAN attempt a trip, improved trip just makes that easier. . .Possible. Remember, damage you take from provoking that AoO is also a penalty applied to your CMB. So eating 15 damage trying to make a trip makes it kinda impossible yeah?
This.
The the basic combat maneuver rules are absurd. It is much easier to trip or bull rush someone than it is to properly use a sword. The idea that someone who has proficiency in the sword never learned how to kick an enemy's legs out from under them without getting stabbed for trying is absurd.
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Nobody is going to take Weapon Focus out of the game just because seven league leaps are in it.
Well no, but it's likely that in Pathfinder 2nd. Edition they'll break up Weapon Focus into a coupe of feats. And maybe require prerequisites.
Meanwhile, the dev. team will also fix some of the glaring weaknesses in primary spellcasters that have made them so weak.
Raith Shadar, please tell me what an anime fighter does that a high level cleric doesn't.
A high level cleric and fighter do nothing anime-wuxia like. Their powers are very different. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Raith Shadar, please tell me how Inquisitor, Ninja, Gunslinger, Magus, Druid, Barbarian, Synthesis Summoner, Investigator, Ranger, Wizard, Oracle, Monk and Rogue all fit into the same genre but 'anime fighter' and 'wuxia' doesn't.
Same answer as above. They do not.
For example, a high level cleric doesn't get to be master of the sword. He doesn't get to leap around at will from tree to tree battling other swordmasters.
This game has nothing to do with anime-wuxia. I don't want any of the classes to do so except perhaps the monk.
Please explain what 'anime' and 'wuxia' does that breaks Pathfinder's genre in a way that everything else I listed doesn't.
Pathfinder is built around fantasy novels. In fantasy novels fighters work with weapons. They may get a cool magic sword, but they do not leap around on trees, shoot off big energy blasts with their swords, or grow them to 100 foot long sword attacks and the like.
Fighters are an archetype meant to simulate high level skill with weapons. Not magical strange powers, but pure mundane skill taken to an elite level. That is what they do. They do not need to do anything else.
If you want to blend magic with your swordplay, there are classes like the magus that do just that.
I've watched anime. There are no analogues in Pathfinder currently to anime. Anime is its own genre. Wuxia is its own genre. If you wanted to simulate either, you would have build a game to do that rather than try to make a fantasy simulation like Pathfinder match either of those separate genres.
There are other games that allow a person to play anime/wuxia fighters. Folks that want to play those type of characters should find systems that allow them to rather than try to force their wants on this game.Raith Shadar, please tell me what an anime fighter does that a high level cleric doesn't.
Raith Shadar, please tell me how Inquisitor, Ninja, Gunslinger, Magus, Druid, Barbarian, Synthesis Summoner, Investigator, Ranger, Wizard, Oracle, Monk and Rogue all fit into the same genre but 'anime fighter' and 'wuxia' doesn't.
Please explain what 'anime' and 'wuxia' does that breaks Pathfinder's genre in a way that everything else I listed doesn't.
Exactly. To me, a good ruleset will allow players to build what they want to build. If a group wants to remove options to focus on a particular genre, they can (even better if the ruleset is modular enough to put genre-specific things outside of the core rules).
Despite the fact I don't want anime/wuxia/superpowered fighters/whatever anyone wants to call it at my table (sorry if that offends anyone, but my preferences are my preferences), I do not see why it can't be supported by the rules for those who want it (as I respect *your* preferences too).
Focusing the game tightly on a single, narrow genre definition can only mean less players, less money for Paizo, and less development on the game.
Or that this game is a very focused genre game that was never intended to cater to all audiences in all genres.
Or that this game is a very focused genre game that was never intended to cater to all audiences in all genres.
Which already includes but isn't exactly limited to,
Aliens/Science Fiction
Dinosaurs
HP Lovecraftian Nightmares
Medieval Fantasy
Eastern Fantasy(Which includes said wuxia legends, the Monks and Ninjas do exist despite the former's poor implementation)
Any I'm missing fellas?
Does Golarion have any greco-roman myth going on?
Medusa, Titans, Cerberi, Scylla, Charybdis and more.
I don't want anime/video game martials myself. I want Launcelot type of martials at level 20. That's what he was: a lvl 20 cavalier/fighter, not lvl 7. Unmatched on the battlefield against other martials, but wizards are a problem unless they have a swords like Excalibur or something similar.I know you and I have frequently talked past eachother on this issue, but just to drive home the differences in playstyle/game perception...
In my personal opinion Lancelot as typically presented is no higher than 4th level. If you apply principles of power-scaling in comparison to some of the other knights in the mythos, then maybe, MAYBE he squeaks up to level 6. (I also am of the opinion Arthur is prone to being one to two levels lower than his knights but equipped with an artifact)
EDIT: I will note, however, that I haven't read very much of the ACTUAL Arthurian myth, mostly having read books and seen films based on/derived from it.
I have never seen a 4th level fighter kill a 100 trained knights by himself on the field of battle. I haven't seen a 6th lvl fighter accomplish this either.
Launcelot was known as the greatest knight of his time. He was able to defeat all who came against him in continuous battle. He could kill a 100 lower knights arrayed as knights are arrayed in a single battle. He fought against enchanted knights like Gawain who gained the strength of a strong giant during certain hours of the day. And was able to fight him without killing him because of his superior ability.
That is not any 4th level character I have ever seen. I'd like to see you run a 4th level Launcelot without magical gear (Launcelot did not have magic) against 100 1st level knights and see how he fares.
It is obvious you haven't read much Arthurian Legend. Your simulations would be poor indeed and require an extraordinary effort to weaken things on your part.
I doubt a 4th level character could be 10 lvl 1 knights on trained horses, much less the 100 Launcelot could standardly defeat in combat as part of his day.
That is if you made them all 1st level. All named knights certainly wouldn't be 1st level. A named knight is usually a knight who is high enough level to have obtained the title through battle having been knighted by a titled knight or noble he served under. The title itself generally precludes being a 1st level fighter.
To obtain the title of greatest knight of the realms would most assuredly be far above the ability of a lvl 4 knight to accomplish.
Added another genre.
Greco-Roman Myth (Although the martials are screwed out of the better stuff)Any I'm missing fellas?
I'm tempted to say that the mythic rules can provide the "better stuff" here. Perhaps one way to allow for more powerful martials would be to allow them to take these as regular feats (allowing extra bonus feats if necessary)? Another option would be to graft the "Champion" path from the Mythic rules onto fixed points in martial character progression, as an example (say, gaining 1st tier at L5, then one tier per X levels depending on the imbalance you're attempting to fix)
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Pathfinder is built around fantasy novels. In fantasy novels fighters work with weapons. They may get a cool magic sword, but they do not leap around on trees, shoot off big energy blasts with their swords, or grow them to 100 foot long sword attacks and the like.
Tabling that false statement for a moment, who says Fighters need to shoot off energy blasts or stretch their swords? That's not what the majority is aiming for here. Though powerful leaps ala, I dunno, every action/fantasy piece of fiction ever (ever notice how the guy ALWAYS seems to be able to jump JUST FAR ENOUGH to at least land on the edge of the gap he's trying to jump to?) would be nice.
Hell, they do insane jumps in Lord of the Rings, which is like the vailla-iest vanilla ever.
Now back to your initial false statement, I'd like to direct you to, ahem:
Malazan Book of the Fallen
The Night Angel Trilogy
The Obsidian Trilogy (the "Fighter" in that is technically a mage but literally all his magery besides cantrips that take him almost an hour to perform is built into making him an unstoppable swordsman).
Actually let's go back to that last one, it's a pretty good example of stuff people would like Fighters to be able to do (besides having more skill points a level).
Been a while since I read that one, so I may muck up some details, but what this guy does is basically see a grid over an enemy.
What does this grid do?
-Shows him vital spots to hit to injure his opponents in debilitating ways (built in Fighter class feature that lets him do debuffs ala Stunning Fist?) and where to cut through their armor (situationally ignore some armor bonuses?).
-Create a defensive "web" around himself (basically just a preternatural sense of when his opponent is going to attack, and where, and how fast, so he can better block).
This character coexists in a world with THREE DIFFERENT KINDS of mages taht can all perform at least mid-level Pathfinder magic (animating constructs, healing people, scrying, creating a massive freaking death lightning bolt that wipes out half an army, etc.). Why? Because that ability lets him know where to be, and where not to be, to attack such casters. Cast a lightning bolt at him? He knew it was coming. Sidestepped and then kept on walking.
Fighter can't do that. It'd be nice if he could.
Those two things, immediately, can increase the Fighter's in combat versatility.
Throw in some skill based ability, say using Sense Motive, Standard action, get a quick gauge of the opponent. Know their general threat level (non-threat CR well below APL, moderate threat CR = APL, high threat CR = highe rthan APL, and so on), fighting ability (magic, TWFing, sword and board, combat maneuver, etc.) and whether they're imminently hostile.
Bam. Out of combat utility for the Fighter. Something a party can live without, but is unique and useful.
Things like that are what people want.
I've actually been reading the mythic stuff today, and I'm thinking about incorporating free Mythic Progression along with levels gained in non-casting (I am counting Paladin and Ranger here) classes. Mythic Tier = total level in non-casting classes /2.
Heh, similar idea came to me and edited my post just as you posted that :)
The way I see it, Paizo's intention is that "fantastic martial abilities" are covered by the Mythic rules, it's just the implementation into a separate system that's the issue for people that'd like them on "regular" martials. Therefore, the groundwork of those abilities is all done, it's just a matter of finding a way to patch them into the core system for martials. While not exactly official, I think it's fair to say that any official option isn't going to arrive today (if it ever does) and help people improve their games so testing out ideas is the most productive solution for now (if nothing else, it gives more ammunition to ask for an official option later on.)
As I said earlier, it isn't an option I want to use in my games, but I'd like to see it there for those that do want it. As long as any official change later allowed me the option of playing either with or without at my table, I think the best thing for the game itself in the long run is to provide players with that choice.
Or that this game is a very focused genre game that was never intended to cater to all audiences in all genres.Which already includes but isn't exactly limited to,
Aliens/Science Fiction
Dinosaurs
HP Lovecraftian Nightmares
Medieval Fantasy
Eastern Fantasy(Which includes said wuxia legends, the Monks and Ninjas do exist despite the former's poor implementation)Any I'm missing fellas?
It addresses the part of science fiction that falls more into the fantasy genre. It isn't the hard science fiction of an Isaac Asimov, but the fantasy pulp science fiction of a Jules Verne.
It recently incorporated Eastern fantasy. It has not done this with all iterations and there are games that do it far better, especially martial arts.
Horror and fantasy have been blended since the inception of the game.
Mainly it's based on fantasy novels. That is still the heart and soul of the game.
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A high level cleric and fighter do nothing anime-wuxia like. Their powers are very different. The two have nothing to do with each other.
For example, a high level cleric doesn't get to be master of the sword.
Ok. That's why I've made a custom "Anime Fighter" Class for myself. Here's a sample of his powers:
Weapon Master (Su): At 8th level, as a swift action, you gain the use of one combat feat for a number of rounds per day equal to your Anime level.
See, Anime Fighters are really resourceful warriors so it makes sense to give them that kind of versatility. But that's still 'mundane'. It's not anime until my sword is glowing and I'm shooting blade waves at people!
Anime Sword Magic: 1st—magic weapon, 2nd—spiritual weapon, 3rd—magic vestment, 4th—divine power, 5th—flame strike, 6th—blade barrier, 7th—power word blind, 8th—power word stun, 9th—power word kill.
Real anime badasses at high level can even stop, stun, or KILL with just a stern look too, so I added those powers in! Now if this looks familiar to you, what I've written is the "War" domain abilities that the CLERIC in Pathfinder has.
He doesn't get to leap around at will from tree to tree battling other swordmasters.
Are you sure about that? With the right trait and some skill points I'll be keeping my balance as I leap about alright, and when things get slippery... at level 6 my Anime Cleric is as swift as the very wind! Those clunky western knights charge at him with their non-masterword bastard swords when my anime cleric WIND WALKS right through them! Or maybe I decide "Y'know, I don't want to be Cloud Strife, I want to be... an anime ninja, like Naruto!" Look at what the Travel n' Trickery domain s provide my Anime Ninja:
Agile Feet (Su): As a free action, you can gain increased mobility for 1 round. For the next round, you ignore all difficult terrain and do not take any penalties for moving through it. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.
1st—longstrider, 2nd—locate object, 3rd—fly, 4th—dimension door, 5th—teleport, 6th—find the path, 7th—greater teleport, 8th—phase door, 9th—astral projection.
Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Master's Illusion (Sp): At 8th level, you can create an illusion that hides the appearance of yourself and any number of allies within 30 feet for 1 round per cleric level. This ability otherwise functions like the spell veil. The save DC to disbelieve this effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier. The rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Domain Spells: 1st—disguise self, 2nd—invisibility, 3rd—nondetection, 4th—confusion, 5th—false vision, 6th—mislead, 7th—screen, 8th—mass invisibility, 9th—time stop.
Not only do I run through trees, I run through DIMENSIONS! Kawarimi no jutsu, Kage Bushin no Jutsu, believe it!
This game has nothing to do with anime-wuxia. I don't want any of the classes to do so except perhaps the monk.
You know what's one of my favorite parts of anime? When the hero transforms into a badass powered up form. The Synthesist summoner is just perfect for that. Or maybe the mutagen quaffing Alchemist if I want a more visceral feeling to the transformation.
Pathfinder is built around fantasy novels. In fantasy novels fighters work with weapons. They may get a cool magic sword, but they do not leap around on trees, shoot off big energy blasts with their swords, or grow them to 100 foot long sword attacks and the like.
Can you name some of those novels that come to your mind? Because honestly the only time I see the zany bonkers world-destroying stuff that D&D Clerics and Wizards do in fiction is Japanimatianime.
I've watched anime. There are no analogues in Pathfinder currently to anime. Anime is its own genre. Wuxia is its own genre. If you wanted to simulate either, you would have build a game to do that rather than try to make a fantasy simulation like Pathfinder match either of those separate genres.
You've watched anime give me an anime concept (the more the merrir) that has no pathfinder analogue.
*Even Gandalf isn't EXACTLY the same as any Pathfinder class by the way, so we have wiggle room for concept fitting.
First off, you're wrong. Lancelot was given a magic ring that broke enchantments by the Lady of the Lake. I also have good reason to believe Arondight was at least a +1 sword, although I suppose it may have just been a named Masterwork sword.
Secondly, I guarantee you a well built 4th level character SHOULD be able to beat 10 level 1 knights on horseback. If he can't, his tactics are terrible or he built the character wrong.
No. He wasn't given that ring in the original mythos.
Now the addition of "well-built". I'm sure the lvl 1 knights will be poorly built.
Fighters are an archetype meant to simulate high level skill with weapons. [...] They do not need to do anything else.
Objectively false even by the standard of Pathfinder as it is now.
In order to live up to even what they've got right now, for example, they need to be courageous in battle. At the moment, wimpy wizards and NPC expert cooks have a superior fear save to the Fighter.
And even more objectively false according to the stories. Gilgamesh started out his epic marching across the known world (and a good chunk of the unknown world) in a few days. By the middle point, he outran the Sun.
The frustrating thing here is that both sides of the argument are right, and wrong at the same time.
As-is, the rules obviously don't work for high fantasy/anime/wuxia. If they did, people wouldn't be asking for better martial abilities.
They also don't work for Tolkienish fantasy. If they did, I wouldn't have to houserule so much to get that feel in my own games.
Both sides tend to just gloss over the parts that don't fit in their game, while focusing on the parts that do.
Face it. The rules are all over the place and simulate something between the two that is neither and both at the same time. Otherwise this argument wouldn't even be happening here.
If the rules had a more codified approach to providing the table customization necessary to get the games we wanted, wouldn't everyone* be happy?
Yes, 4e did it wrong by trying to be everything to everyone without any real options whatsoever. It was an all-or-nothing approach that by WotC's own design tried to force "one size fits all" into every game. Why can't we just have "here's a rack of different sizes, take your pick", though?
* well, everyone except PFS players, who would still be stuck as a mix of expectations turning up to the same table, but that's quite honestly another problem altogether anyway. The way I see it, part of PFS is accepting that you play how you want and everyone else at the table is free to play the way they want.
Fantasy varies by book. The general archetypes are the same.
Even in Tolkienish fantasy, the wizards (casters) are the most powerful figures in the story. The martials don't do anything spectacular but fight and a maybe a little magic of their own such as Aragorn knowing a few healing spells (I guess that is what you call them).
Conan stories are the same. Conan usually has to fight some powerful caster that he ends up killing after a very trying time attempting to do so.
In Arthurian Legend the casters are the most powerful figures in the stories, but not necessarily the most prominent. Knights falling under the power of an evil enchantress or wizard is quite common. He usually goes on some great quest to find the means to defeat the evil caster.
Then there the stories like The Wheel of Time where the casters are the ridiculous badasses of the world that control everything. Martials kill them usually by aligning with other casters.
The casters don't all do magic as flashy and powerful as Pathfinder casters. Then again the martials aren't as strong as Pathfinder martials.
The archetypes and pecking order is the same. I think Pathfinder offers a lot of blended options that are available for martials who want a little bit of both. That doesn't mean the fighter should be made greater when he fits an important archetype in the game.
At the moment Pathfinder offers a wide range of archetypes to fit almost any characterization. The options will be greater with the Advanced Class Guide. This entire discussion has always been strange to me given how fantasy books read. The simple fighter has been a part of every fantasy book I've ever read. He isn't the flashiest of guys, he does quite well in a mostly mundane world.
Casters are supposed to be rare. Magic is supposed to be rare. Maybe that is the part that is hardest to simulate in Pathfinder given the ubiquitous nature of magic. In most worlds where magic is rare, martials stand tall without needing crazy magic abilities to do so. In a world where magic is common, it is harder to do.
I don't want to see Pathfinder move into Anime-style characterizations like Bleach to accomplish this. Even characters like Guts in Berserk and the samurai in Samurai Champloo were good with swords. What I'm seeing in these threads is talk of moving fighters to levels like Bleach Shinigami. That would be over the top.
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Or that this game is a very focused genre game that was never intended to cater to all audiences in all genres.Which already includes but isn't exactly limited to,
Aliens/Science Fiction
Dinosaurs
HP Lovecraftian Nightmares
Medieval Fantasy
Eastern Fantasy(Which includes said wuxia legends, the Monks and Ninjas do exist despite the former's poor implementation)Any I'm missing fellas?
It addresses the part of science fiction that falls more into the fantasy genre. It isn't the hard science fiction of an Isaac Asimov, but the fantasy pulp science fiction of a Jules Verne.
It recently incorporated Eastern fantasy. It has not done this with all iterations and there are games that do it far better, especially martial arts.
Horror and fantasy have been blended since the inception of the game.
Mainly it's based on fantasy novels. That is still the heart and soul of the game.
There are literally crashed spaceships and alien technology on Golarion.
Recently? Monks existed from the core book and have available to them very "wuxia"-esque abilities. Flash stepping, punching a guy so hard it shudders his whole system and leaving him stunned to becoming so tough normal weapons can't pierce his skin.