I see the that the general consensus is to build an alchemist that either melees or throws bombs.
What about doing both?
I thinking that you could grab extra discovery about 9 times.
Additional questions:
Is it just me or does Alchemical Allocation also works with mutagens since they are elixers? "An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens. Bombs are explosive splash weapons, and mutagens are transformative elixirs that the alchemist drinks to enhance his physical abilities—both of these are detailed in their own sections below."
The bombs effects that proc on direct hit only work on the target you are throwing at right? They don't effect those in the splash radius who fail their reflex save.
Welcome to Alchemy Marthkus.
Generally the idea behind being melee or throwing bombs revolves around whether you take Vivisectionist or not which drops Bombs for Sneak Attack.
Is there an option for getting Bombs back if you trade it away?
Remember some Bomb effects don't stack. Some Bomb discoveries have effects for targets hit by splash damage like Blinding Bombs.
That is an interesting interpretation of Alchemical Allocation. Nice. Seems functional to me.
Also doing both is pretty much exactly what the Master Chymist prestige class was designed for.
Then again, sneak attack has always been unreliable. Go ask the rogue.
On the other hand, if you really want to do melee sneak attack is a nice bonus and passive without any investment required, alchemist have additional ways to catch foes flat footed, and ways to get multiple attacks while moving(beastmorph says hi!). Additionally, bombs tend to devour quiet a few feats.
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Then again, sneak attack has always been unreliable. Go ask the rogue.
So yeah, theoretically I suppose they could be fine at both. But you know how it goes in PF: Specialization>Everything.
SA doesn't work because the Rogue has no way to make it work. An Alchemist has tons of ways to become invisible and flank with reach and other stuff that makes SA actually worthwhile, including winning initiative with a B. Morph Pounce.
And of course you can go Hyde with bombs, it's one of the things my C. Hyde design is based around. Bombs make a great opening volley (Especially with some kind of detrimental save attached to them, like Frost or Tanglefoot to make advancing on your opponent that much more easy to accomplish)
A generalist Alchemist can do the same with moderate investment into everything, picking up a Mutagen and popping it off before combat and then downing your preferred extract to get the party started right.
I don't know (or think) Mutagen works with AA, but it's not really a great idea since your Mutagens area always free, while potions are the things you're paying big bucks to reuse.
And yeah, most bombs only matter on a direct hit, although I think TF Bomb can entangle those around it. But you're aiming for touch AC most of the time, which is traditionally crazy easy to hit.
I played a vivisectionist alchemist in PFS. I didn't get sneak that often, so when the archetype was banned, I took the chance to make use of bombs. I still focused more on melee, but took a few discoveries to improve my bombs (fast bombs, force bombs and holy bombs). And personally, I enjoyed the bombs a lot more than the sneak attack.
The sneak attack is great if you can get it often enough, but is mediocre if you can't.
I'd rather keep bombs for versatility unless they don't fit the character concept. Between Feral Mutagen and extracts you'll be a powerful enough combatant anyway. I find that sometimes Alchemists actually do so much damage in melee that they draw more retribution than they can handle.
So you think I could get away with starting out with 16 strength and putting no level up increases into it and still be good at melee via mutagens, extracts, and feral mutagen?
So you can use alchemical allocation on mutagens?
You can still put level ups and feats into melee.
There's not a lot of focus that needs to be put into bombs, just get Fast Bombs and a bomb mod option (if you like) and you're fine. It's a ranged touch attack.
You can still put level ups and feats into melee.
There's not a lot of focus that needs to be put into bombs, just get Fast Bombs and a bomb mod option (if you like) and you're fine. It's a ranged touch attack.
I'd rather the level up point go into INT. You think I could get away with that between mutagens and polymorph extracts?
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I'd rather the level up point go into INT. You think I could get away with that between mutagens and polymorph extracts?You can still put level ups and feats into melee.
There's not a lot of focus that needs to be put into bombs, just get Fast Bombs and a bomb mod option (if you like) and you're fine. It's a ranged touch attack.
Easily, 16 strength is plenty for this build. You can bump it more with belts and such, but your polymorph spells are making you into a monster without compare. At 1st level with just Mutagen you're at 20 Str, so you're basically full BAB, eventually buffed with B. Strength, and then you hit Monstrous Form I and you're a beast. Int works best to buff the saves on your bombs, so it's primary if you plan on using a lot of save or lose bombs.
The melees in our group are a Synthesist Summoner, a druid'd pet, and summons.
Do you think my melee could keep up with the Synthesist?
Do you think my melee could keep up with the Synthesist?
Depends on a lot of things. The summoner's build and your own for instance. A buffed up invisible pouncing Vivisectionist or Eidolon on a rampage are both pretty powerful.
Do you think my melee could keep up with the Synthesist?Depends on a lot of things. The summoner's build and your own for instance. A buffed up invisible pouncing Vivisectionist or Eidolon on a rampage are both pretty powerful.
The build is light on melee.
Just 16 str + item + mutagen discoveries(feral, greater, grand, and true) + extracts.
1.Iron Will
2.Feral Mutation
3.Infusion
4.Frost Bomb
5.Smoke Bomb
6.Precise Bomb
7.Stink Bomb
8.Fast Bombs
9.Combine Extracts
10.Sticky Bomb
11.Force Bomb
12.Greater Mutagen
13.Poison Bomb
14.Madness Bomb
15.Dispelling Bomb
16.Grand Mutagen
17.Elixir of Life
18.Inferno Bomb
19.Delayed Bomb
20.True Mutagen,Sticky Poison, Concentrate Poison
Mythic Path(Deadly Throw): Assured Drinker, Path Dabbling(limitless range), Mirror Dodge, Transfer Magic, Unwavering Skill, Enduring Elixir, Class Mimic, Invincible Stand, Enduring Elixir, Mythic Resolve
Mythic Feats: Dual Path(Absorb Blow), Extra Path Ability(longevity), Mythic Paragon, Extra Mythic Power, Potent Surge
SA doesn't work because the Rogue has no way to make it work. An Alchemist has tons of ways to become invisible and flank with reach and other stuff that makes SA actually worthwhile, including winning initiative with a B. Morph Pounce.Then again, sneak attack has always been unreliable. Go ask the rogue.
So yeah, theoretically I suppose they could be fine at both. But you know how it goes in PF: Specialization>Everything.
I think another important factor is that the standard Beastmorph Vivisectionist is a lot less dependent on sneak attack to keep up in damage potential. Most common rogue builds wind up being very dependent on sneak attack to be combat-relevant, while for the Vivisectionist it pushes their damage from "already decent" to "even better."
Do you think my melee could keep up with the Synthesist?Depends on a lot of things. The summoner's build and your own for instance. A buffed up invisible pouncing Vivisectionist or Eidolon on a rampage are both pretty powerful.The build is light on melee.
Just 16 str + item + mutagen discoveries(feral, greater, grand, and true) + extracts.
** spoiler omitted **
You seem a bit bomb heavy. May I recommend Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot?
It is a touch attack but that -4 penalty is still bothersome. And cover bonuses apply normally.
Do you think my melee could keep up with the Synthesist?Depends on a lot of things. The summoner's build and your own for instance. A buffed up invisible pouncing Vivisectionist or Eidolon on a rampage are both pretty powerful.The build is light on melee.
Just 16 str + item + mutagen discoveries(feral, greater, grand, and true) + extracts.
** spoiler omitted **
You seem a bit bomb heavy. May I recommend Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot?
It is a touch attack but that -4 penalty is still bothersome. And cover bonuses apply normally.
I kind of want to avoid taking feats. So I can have more discoveries.
If I can play more as a switch hitter though, the need to throw into melee should come up infrequently.
Ah okay. That sounds cool.
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I kind of want to avoid taking feats. So I can have more discoveries.
If I can play more as a switch hitter though, the need to throw into melee should come up infrequently.
Seems like you're trying to take every flavor of bomb under the sun. While it is buffing the different options you bring to the table, you don't NEED that many. Taking that many is a choice though, and not a terrible one. I'd consider taking things to boost your imitative so that you're often throwing bombs before worrying about teammates and can not worry about the P. Shot Penalty.
I would suggest dropping the combine extracts discovery and instead get an admixture vial. It is a slotless wondrous item that costs 5,000g and works similar to the discovery. The differences are, you can't combine 4th lv extracts (but lvs 1-3 are ok), you can only use it once a day and the vial uses 2 lower leveled extract slots instead of 1 high level slot.
You may want to look through ultimate equipment for other cool and useful alchemist items. Such as the boro bead, which works like a pearl of power for the alchemist.
Also, one discovery I like is mummification. The alchemist’s type does not change, but he becomes immune to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. If you combine that with the ablative barrier extract, it will effectively give you DR 5/- to the next 10 attacks that damage you. And since ablative barrier doesn't actually give you DR, it will stack with any other DR, such as that from stoneskin.
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And of course, there's always my Alchemist Guide if you're looking for items tailored specifically for Alchemist, including a wealth of mundane items as well.