Power Attack and TWFing: Does it help more often than it hurts?


Advice


Exactly what it says on the tin, really. Is it better for a TWFer to use Power Attack, or no?

For a more specific example, will a Str based (sorta, Dex 15, Str 16, will be focusing on Str as I level) Ranger benefit from the extra damage more than the extra to-hit penalty hurts him?

For even more specificity, this Ranger will be TWFing with a Falcata and a shield. I will not be taking Improved or Greater TWFing almost certainly.

Or is it on a bit of a range? Are there certain levels it's better than others? Is it better earlier on, or later in the game, or about the same throughout?


If it agaisnt a favored enemy then it definitely helps. When you have shield master then It could hep (depending on how strong is the shield enhacement). If you are flanking then it would probably help.

What I am saying is thatn in certain occasion it would helps, in others it does not, you have to use it wisely.

Against enemis that seems heavy armored you might consider not using it. Agaisnt light armored, or if you can pile situational modifier, is a DPR increaser.

Maybe try the outflank feat with the animal companion.


Rynjin wrote:

Exactly what it says on the tin, really. Is it better for a TWFer to use Power Attack, or no?

For a more specific example, will a Str based (sorta, Dex 15, Str 16, will be focusing on Str as I level) Ranger benefit from the extra damage more than the extra to-hit penalty hurts him?

For even more specificity, this Ranger will be TWFing with a Falcata and a shield. I will not be taking Improved or Greater TWFing almost certainly.

Or is it on a bit of a range? Are there certain levels it's better than others? Is it better earlier on, or later in the game, or about the same throughout?

Depends on how high you can get your attack bonus mate. If you can hit reliably even with the TWFing penalties, go for the power attack.

I believe Shield Master helps greatly in this regard. And technically you get to Power Attack for free with Shield Master. Even if you go by the RAI of Shield Master, a Ranger can get his bonuses up such that he can take the Power Attack penalties without too much problem.


This sounds like one of those questions that's going to have a lot of ifs in the answer, mostly pertaining to the AC of what you're fighting. Hopefully someone will come in and all math it up for you.

Out of curiosity why are you bothering with 15 Dex on a Ranger if you're planning on pumping strength? You don't need to meet the TWF prerequisites.


chaoseffect wrote:

This sounds like one of those questions that's going to have a lot of ifs in the answer, mostly pertaining to the AC of what you're fighting. Hopefully someone will come in and all math it up for you.

Out of curiosity why are you bothering with 15 Dex on a Ranger if you're planning on pumping strength? You don't need to meet the TWF prerequisites.

Fairly certain hes going the Shield Style in which case he needs the Dex if he wants TWF.


I totally forgot that style existed. Thanks for pointing that out to me.


Scavion wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:

This sounds like one of those questions that's going to have a lot of ifs in the answer, mostly pertaining to the AC of what you're fighting. Hopefully someone will come in and all math it up for you.

Out of curiosity why are you bothering with 15 Dex on a Ranger if you're planning on pumping strength? You don't need to meet the TWF prerequisites.

Fairly certain hes going the Shield Style in which case he needs the Dex if he wants TWF.

No, the style have TWF as a feat.


Then chaos effect question still stands, why 15 dex if you will not go for ITWF and GTWF?


Neat. Definitely taking Shield Master at 6th (have I ever mentioned that I LOVE how Combat Style Feast lets you cut out some of the b!+&@@&@ every now and then?).

I was asking because I'm trying to find some space in my Feat progression as well because I want wiiiings.

Spoiler:

Feats:

1.) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Falcata
2.) Two-Weapon Fighting
3.) Improved Shield Bash
5.) Shield Slam
6.) Shield Master
7.) Power Attack (Angelic Blood?)
9.) Angelic Blood (Iron Will or Angelic Flesh?)
10) Bashing Finish
11.) Angel Wings

The Dex thing was unavoidable, really. He's a Garuda Blooded Aasimar, and I didn't have anywhere I really wanted to put an extra single point (pre-racial 16 13 14 12 10 10), so I just bought a 13 instead of a 12 (I don't like having a Dex lower than 14 on people not in Heavy Armor) in Dex and called it a day.

The Feat progression isn't set in stone, but the race is (I meant to change it to Angel Blooded so I could drop Cha to 8 and still end up with a 10, freeing some extra points without dumping Cha because reasons) but I forgot to finalize that before the game started and I've already stated in character that my ancestor was a Garuda, so oh well.

Is it better to take TWFing early or later? Say if I took Shield Slam at 2nd, then TWFing and Improved Shield Bash at 5th would that be better?

Contributor

Like Chaos said, this is going to be a lot of "ifs." Is it worth doing? Mathematically, yes. Power Attack is designed to provide the same numeric benefits to TWF as 2H. The difference, of course, is that you have a very probable chance of missing with your attacks, thereby reducing your chance to actually hit.

So is it worth it? Yes. If you are fairly certain you can hit your opponent despite the penalties. Or if you are desperate and NEED something to die fast. Or if you're feeling lucky, punk.

Personally, I often eat the Combat Expertise penalty and the Power Attack penalty at the same time on my fighter, which at my level (8th-9th) is worse than taking Power Attack / TWF (-6 in all). And you know what? S'not as bad as you think it might be, especially if you are fighting humanoids. Because the secret is that humanoid AC actually doesn't scale all that well. Its mostly reliant on expensive armor, and the NPC wealth allotment progresses fairly slowly.

So yeah, eat that penalty with glee against humanoids!


We're playing Serpent's Skull, which after a point is full of Serpentfolk ("spoiler alert", lol) so that shouldn't be an issue. I remember the first book being pretty devoid of anything even vaguely human shaped until the end but that's not a biggie.


Maybbe shield slam, I am not sure you have the enough CMB for that manevuer to be effevtive agaisnt non favored enemies.


Alphonse Veritas wrote:


Is it better to take TWFing early or later? Say if I took Shield Slam at 2nd, then TWFing and Improved Shield Bash at 5th would that be better?

Well, TWFing's main charm is that it gives you another attack. Delaying it closer to when everyone gets their iteratives makes it look less appealing.

My opinion advises prioritizing Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fighting then let the flavor/cool stuff come after the hard mechanics.

I'm not huge on Shield Slam since big enemies and high CMDs are frequent.

It is neat though.


Shield slam is pretty cool, but you have to spend resources in it.


So would it be better to drop Shield Slam entirely and take something else?

Any other good Feats for a Sword and Board guy, or should I look into more general helpful stuff like Iron Will?

On a side note, I don't really like Animal Companions a whole lot, so I was thinking of taking the Spirit Ranger archetype. Worth it?


Uhm, the animal companion is great since it give you bonus to attack. The spirit ranger is not that good but it is good enough.


Rynjin wrote:

So would it be better to drop Shield Slam entirely and take something else?

Any other good Feats for a Sword and Board guy, or should I look into more general helpful stuff like Iron Will?

On a side note, I don't really like Animal Companions a whole lot, so I was thinking of taking the Spirit Ranger archetype. Worth it?

Well if you don't like the Animal Companion go for it. It has some nice utility casting. I can definitely see it's worth over a campaign.


Rynjin wrote:

Exactly what it says on the tin, really. Is it better for a TWFer to use Power Attack, or no?

For a more specific example, will a Str based (sorta, Dex 15, Str 16, will be focusing on Str as I level) Ranger benefit from the extra damage more than the extra to-hit penalty hurts him?

For even more specificity, this Ranger will be TWFing with a Falcata and a shield. I will not be taking Improved or Greater TWFing almost certainly.

Or is it on a bit of a range? Are there certain levels it's better than others? Is it better earlier on, or later in the game, or about the same throughout?

Normally it hurts, but when you are getting your favored enemy bonus it could help at times depending on the AC of the enemy. Personally I don't think it is a good idea. You will get more use(damage) out of boon companion and an animal companion.


So I actually just got a go ahead to swap to Angel Blooded (we haven't had any combat or really skill checks yet, so s'all good).

So new stats come out to (pre-racial):

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

For a final product of 18 Str, 9 Cha, and everything else the same. RP shouldn't change at all since I was playing him as a bit too socially pushy sometimes anyway.

So in that case, TWFing at 2nd is pretty much a lock.

Then again, a Garuda blooded (in-built racial hatred of snakes) just seems so coooool for Serpent's Skull. *keeps hitting self in head for indecision*

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