Patrick Harris @ MU |
Unless Paizo has published a list of Prestige Class synergies for retraining, in a PFS legal source, they do not have any.
The retraining rules provide guidelines for determining synergy.
Most prestige classes have retraining synergy with base classes that share their common class features. For example, the arcane trickster prestige class requires and advances arcane spellcasting, so it has retraining synergy with all arcane spellcasting classes. It also requires and advances sneak attack, so it has retraining synergy with classes that grant sneak attack.
The trouble is, like so many other things, that's open to interpretation. Consider the Sleepless Detective--the class is clearly (to my mind) arcane in flavor, but most of the SLAs are wizard/cleric spells, which doesn't provide guidance, and it's got one ranger-only spell. So does it have divine synergy or arcane synergy?
The GM is the final arbiter of whether or not a prestige class has retraining synergy with a base class ...
So yes, in PFS, Mike Brock is "the GM" for things like this. But table judges are deputized, as evidenced by the fact that retraining needs to be approved by said judges. If there is no list, they will make the call on their own.
Finally ...
The GM is the final arbiter of whether or not a prestige class has retraining synergy with a base class, but should err on the side of generosity—if you would rather spend time retraining levels over and over again instead of adventuring, that is your choice.
Bolding, as you have probably guessed, mine.
The retraining rules explicitly call out that there should be flexibility in this matter. Since you can't retrain from a base class to a prestige class, the primary use of this will be training out of PrCs, which will presumably happen when we buy into a class that looked awesome but turns out to suck (as is the case with my character). All the more reason to "err on the side of generosity," I would argue.
Finally, I'd like to revisit your statement:
Unless Paizo has published a list of Prestige Class synergies for retraining, in a PFS legal source, they do not have any.
I would not presume to guess your reaction, Mr. Lefebvre, since I do not know you. But since someone will likely argue that all of the information I have quoted above doesn't apply in the absence of a specific list, I want to consider the extension of that reasoning: By that rule, Bloatmage does not have synergy for retraining to Wizard or Sorcerer, despite being an arcane spellcasting PrC. Bellflower Tiller does not have synergy for retraining to Rogue, despite requiring (and providing) sneak attack. And ... oh, I don't know ... Champion of Irori doesn't have synergy with Paladin or Monk.
While I appreciate the idea that we need to prevent systems from being abused, I feel that shutting them down because we haven't received explicit instruction is not necessarily the best solution.
Under A Bleeding Sun |
Well, if it happens to be Arcane Trickster it specifically says it has synergy with Wizard and Rogue. I could go on and theorize but my hunch says: Full SA = Rogue, Full Caster = Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric. Full BAB + Feats = Fighter.
But really, its pretty hard to say. It would be nice to get some kind of list for society play, though I don't see myself retraining too much, though I did retrain my Arcane Trickster Wizard levels down when the SLA errata came out, which was really nice.
Brian Lefebvre |
The retraining rules provide guidelines for determining synergy.
But anything that requires GM discretion isn't legal for PFS until a ruling as been issued from the campaign staff - Mike and John. For an example of this is allowed mounts/animal companions for rangers, paladins and cavaliers. They all have specific lists and then include a note that GMs are free to expand these options, but in PFS it has been ruled that table GMs do not have the power to expand these options based on their personal whims.
So yes, in PFS, Mike Brock is "the GM" for things like this. But table judges are deputized, as evidenced by the fact that retraining needs to be approved by said judges. If there is no list, they will make the call on their own.
GMs signing off on retraining only ensure that the retraining is PFS legal and all of the appropriate costs have been paid. They do not have the authority to allow things that are not clearly outlined in the additional resources page or the FAQ.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
But anything that requires GM discretion isn't legal for PFS until a ruling as been issued from the campaign staff - Mike and John. For an example of this is allowed mounts/animal companions for rangers, paladins and cavaliers. They all have specific lists and then include a note that GMs are free to expand these options, but in PFS it has been ruled that table GMs do not have the power to expand these options based on their personal whims.
"This is a list, you can add to it with GM discretion" is not the same thing as "there is no list, it's up to GM discretion." See the Charm Person argument that's occurring else-thread.
Merisal The Risen |
As it stands there is no clear ruling so there is no synergy between prestige classes and base character classes at present. The only simple ruling I could see working for PFS is to declare all prestige classes have synergy with a PCs favoured class. In 99 percent of cases this should be true and in the 1 per cent well there's a reason why its your characters favoured class. ;-) (this does not work for core classes as the game designers have already clarified what does have synergy for core classes.
Some Half elves get the choice of 2 (woo hoo half elves) and as you cant retrain into a prestige class as per the latest FAQ that cuts out most of the other problems
However until such a proposal is cleared by Mike and John you are stuck with no synergy between prestige and core classes sorry :-(
Brian Lefebvre |
"This is a list, you can add to it with GM discretion" is not the same thing as "there is no list, it's up to GM discretion." See the Charm Person argument that's occurring else-thread.
Interpretations of rule interactions and campaign legal character options aren't the same thing.
The campaign guide allows judgment calls by GMs for rule interactions for that specific table, and does not carry over to any other table without an errata or FAQ.
Character options have never been open to GM discretion in PFS. Since a table ruling would never be guaranteed past each table played. Prestige class retraining synergy falls under character options, and falls under the jurisdiction of what the additional resources allows. Individual GMs do not have the authority to make these rulings in PFS.
Until the Paizo Rules team or PFS management issue a specific ruling about what classes PrC have retraining synergy with they don't have any.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
Okay. If that's what it is, that's what it is. So let's make a list. We argue about it, decide what we think, present it to Mike & John. If they don't like it, they throw it back. If they do like it, they can make whatever tweaks they want and put it up in a sticky thread.
I've put together a preliminary list. I've just gone down the list at Archives of Nethys for this--I don't pretend to be an expert on all these prestige classes, and I expect (and welcome) counterarguments on these.
Arcane Archer: Fighter, Ranger, Arcane casters
Arcane Trickster: Rogue, Arcane casters
Balanced Scale of Abadar: Rogue, Divine casters
Battle Herald: Cavalier, Bard
Bellflower Tiller: Rogue
Bloatmage: Arcane casters
Brother of the Seal: Monk
Champion of Irori: Monk, Paladin
Cyphermage: Arcane casters
Daivrat: Arcane or Divine casters
Dawnflower Dissident: Divine casters
Diabolist: Arcane or Divine casters
Divine Scion: Divine casters
Dragon Disciple: Arcane casters
Duelist: Fighter
Eldritch Knight: Fighter, Arcane casters
Golden Legionnaire: Fighter, Paladin
Green Faith Acolyte: Divine casters
Halfling Opportunist: Rogue
Hellknight: Fighter, Paladin
Hellknight Signifer: Arcane or Divine casters
Holy Vindicator: Cleric
Horizon Walker: Ranger
Inheritor's Crusader: Cleric, Paladin
Inner Sea Pirate: Rogue
Knight of Ozem: Fighter, Paladin
Lantern Bearer: Fighter, Ranger
Liberator: Rogue
Lion Blade: Rogue, Bard
Living Monolith: Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
Loremaster: Arcane or Divine casters
Low Templar: Fighter, Rogue
Magaambyan Arcanist: Wizard, Magus, Witch
Mammoth Rider: Druid; Cavalier; Samurai; mount-oriented Rangers, Paladins, or Oracles (too vague?)
Master Chymist: Alchemist
Master Spy: Rogue
Mystery Cultist: Divine casters
Mystic Theurge: Arcane or Divine casters
Nature Warden: Druid; Cavalier; Samurai; mount-oriented Rangers, Paladins, or Oracles (too vague?)
Pathfinder Chronicler: Any? None?
Pathfinder Delver: Bard
Pathfinder Field Agent: Any? None?
Pathfinder Savant: Arcane or Divine casters
Prophet of Kalistrade: ?
Rage Prophet: Oracle, Barbarian
Riftwarden: Arcane or Divine casters
Shadowdancer: Rogue, Arcane casters
Shieldmarshal: Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Paladin
Skyseeker: Ranger, Divine casters
Sleepless Detective: Rogue, Arcane casters (???)
Stalwart Defender: Fighter
Steel Falcon: Fighter, Rogue
Storm Kindler: Arcane or Divine casters
Student of War: Fighter
Tattooed Mystic: Arcane or Divine casters
Veiled Illusionist: Arcane or Divine casters
Winter Witch: Witch
Thoughts?