Should ammunition break when used as an improvised weapon?


Rules Questions


If I use an arrow as a dagger, should it still break, as per ammunition rules? Furthermore, should a magic arrow (with improved hardness and HP) break as easily?

I believe RAW state they do not break; but I also believe magic arrows are too powerful, in that case.

RAW implies that ammunition only breaks when used as ammunition. For example, RAW states that ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being lost, or destroyed. Losing or destroying an arrow by thrusting it into empty space like a dagger seems silly.

Additionally, we all know that Pathfinder is an evolution of D&D, and 3.5 explicitly stated that improvised weapons broke 50% of the time. This rule is noticeably absent in Pathfinder, and I tend to believe that such an omission was intentional on the part of the developers.

As there are no explicit rules for breaking improvised weapons, I believe introducing a rule, or applying ammunition rules to improvised weapons, implies that similar rules should be applied to ALL fragile improvised weapons. For example, would a glass bottle break, or should one just assume that such items begin with the fragile quality? Introducing the fragile quality to ammunition-improvised weapons would be a house rule solution.

HOWEVER, having unbreakable improvised arrows becomes potentially unbalanced, which is why I pose the question in the first place. Individual arrows are much, MUCH cheaper than actual weapons. The -4 penalty is quite large at low levels, and mostly takes care of the issue. But certain powerful bonuses can counteract this penalty. For example, a +1 arrow with a +1 magical enhancement costs about 160 GP (8K/50), a very reasonable price at level 2, or even level 1 with the right starting trait. Such a weapon will function as a dagger with -3/+1 + enhancement. At such a low price, a player could acquire several different types of Bane arrows, for a wide variety of enemies. This boosts the bonus to -1/+10!! (2d6+3 damage.) This almost negates the penalty and MORE than compensates for damage.

I've crunched some numbers, and I believe that the Bane enhancement is the only one powerful enough to negate the -4 penalty completely at low-level prices. Other enhancers will give the players specific energy bonuses, but are of debatable utility. Of course, it costs only a little extra money to increase the enhancement bonus. a +2 bane arrow, for example, completely negates the improvised weapon penalty.

This all assumes that players purchase these items themselves. I've noticed many campaigns use these low-cost items as common treasure rewards, making the issue more prevalent.

I believe that such arrows would give non-combat builds (or even a considerable edge early in the game. Later on, at levels 3+, I can see these items being much less useful.

Thoughts?

edit: I've come up with a plethora of ways to balance these proposed arrows, in game. However, I would like to know what more experienced gamers feel is the RAW analysis--and if the RAW analysis requires such balancing.

Grand Lodge

I believe it should be a GM's call on a situation by situation basis.
When it comes to magic arrows, I treat them as they would be if they were fired. They do their damage, apply their magic, and are destroyed after the successful hit.

I would certainly not allow them to be used as long term magic weapons. Using an arrow as a melee weapon should only be used as a desperation move, and I would make GM rulings to encourage that mindset.

Sczarni

Mister Game Person Fellow wrote:
Thoughts?

Check out the text on the Durable Arrow. Coincidentally it uses Bane as an example.

Sczarni

Also, there's this:

Quote:
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Whether it's shot from a bow or jabbed into someone's eye, if an arrow does damage, it's of no more use (except for the Durable Arrow I mentioned, obviously).


this could simply follow under a common sense rule. Can i put a bullet between my fingers and punch someone. with an improvised bullet weapon.. in theory. would it destroy the bullet? probably not. Would stabbing someone with an arrow break it? likely.

the other way really to deal with metagame cheese is just say 'no' and then not think about it. Wether a Pc can even buy magic arrows ins tacks of less than 50 is totally in the Dm's control.


The only reason I was worried about it is because--and I don't think this is much of a spoiler--bane arrows come up in some of the Paizo campaigns, and I'm trying to figure out how to balance them. I agree, if you can't buy them individually, it takes care of the price.

BUT! That durable arrow item EXACTLY answers my question about magic, though. Broken or not, if magic is expended on one use (and it clearly implies this to be the case, as per the feat) then that pretty much takes care of any and all balance issues. And the product is Paizo, so it's legit, as they say in the vernacular.

Any issues with broken or unbroken arrows are so trivial, without magic, I see no problem with just deciding RAW or house rules as needed.

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