"Does everyone's prices increase in lockstep?"
That is the key to your argument... And the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. You are right in that price increases often fail when only a small part of the market goes up. Those pressures toward the lower priced alternatives keep things in check... but look at fast food. After years and years of failed price increases at a certain point suddenly they all went up. Same with groceries. All because of the pressure of about a dollar more in fuel costs. While we will likely not know for certain how quickly wages will increase costs I think the past is a good indicator that they will go up at some point maybe not all at once. But nature will seek it's new equilibrium. The middle class will spend a little less and the working poor will spend a little more. Business will go on. Nobody will starve under the new equilibrium. This is probably the real reason it's opposed by the Republican party. The Republican middle class demographic will lose spending power while the Democrat lower class will gain spending power. This means more revenue for the Democrat party and less for the Republican one. The rich are an integral part of both parties and so you can be certain the rich won't truly be targeted by such legislation.
The thing about those arguments is that we can very easily look at historical increases of the minimum wage to see if those predictions come true. And they never have, not once, not only in this country, but in other nations with a minimum wage. So we can immediately toss out those arguments as invalid.
The thing about those arguments is that we can very easily look at historical increases of the minimum wage to see if those predictions come true. ...
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If it is so easy to do, then post your data/graph of results, instead
of just waving your hands in the air.
.
From the US Department of Labor:
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy.
Not true: Since 1938, the federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times. For more than 75 years, real GDP per capita has steadily increased, even when the minimum wage has been raised.
From the US Department of Labor:
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy.
Not true: Since 1938, the federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times. For more than 75 years, real GDP per capita has steadily increased, even when the minimum wage has been raised.
There is a built in fallacy there. All of the measurements of inflation etc. are measured by the cost of "durable goods." Most poor people are not buying many of those goods, they are buying food, fastfood, and other items that aren't covered in inflation measurements. That raise in price of fastfood, clothes, food, rent, gas, and everything else that goes up when the minimum wage goes up hurts the poor and middle classes much more than the rich.
Raising the minimum wage trickles upward in the wage pool slowly. The UAW will take it into account in their bargaining session so eventually the price of a car goes up, but it takes years.
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Glad I live in Australia - highest minimum wage in the world, socialised healthcare, and no GFC.
Best country in the world...
But again, no evidence that those prices raise at all significantly. But here, let's ask a resident of Australia.
The 8th Dwarf, with the self admittedly highest minimum wage in the world, how much does a Big Mac cost in Australia?
From the US Department of Labor:
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy.
Not true: Since 1938, the federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times. For more than 75 years, real GDP per capita has steadily increased, even when the minimum wage has been raised.
There is a built in fallacy there. All of the measurements of inflation etc. are measured by the cost of "durable goods." Most poor people are not buying many of those goods, they are buying food, fastfood, and other items that aren't covered in inflation measurements. That raise in price of fastfood, clothes, food, rent, gas, and everything else that goes up when the minimum wage goes up hurts the poor and middle classes much more than the rich.
Raising the minimum wage trickles upward in the wage pool slowly. The UAW will take it into account in their bargaining session so eventually the price of a car goes up, but it takes years.
The UAW had it's starting wages slashed in half with a campaign to get old-timers to retire as part of Barack "Friend of Labor" Obama's Big Auto bailout.
Has the price of cars gone down? I hadn't noticed.
But again, no evidence that those prices raise at all significantly. But here, let's ask a resident of Australia.
The 8th Dwarf, with the self admittedly highest minimum wage in the world, how much does a Big Mac cost in Australia?
There is no evidence because no one measures them. But as anecdotal evidence 20 years ago I worked for Taco Bell, a taco was $0.49, the minimum wage was $4.25 that same taco is now over a dollar and the minimum wage has gone up to $8.25.
Pretty sure economists do measure that stuff. So in this example, the increase in minimum wage has vastly outpaced the increase in the cost of the taco, this is a good thing.
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But again, no evidence that those prices raise at all significantly. But here, let's ask a resident of Australia.
The 8th Dwarf, with the self admittedly highest minimum wage in the world, how much does a Big Mac cost in Australia?
Burgernomics: Aussie dollar is just right, says the Big Mac index.
From the article
The price of a Big Mac in America was $US4.80 in July. In Australia it was $US4.81 at market exchange rates, meaning that the Aussie was overvalued by 0.4 per cent, according to The Economist’s raw Big Mac Index.
Australia:
Most workers are covered by an award, which may vary by employee age, geographical location and industry. For adults not covered by an award or agreement, the minimum wages is A$16.87 per hour, A$640.90 per week; set federally by Fair Work Australia. Junior workers, apprentices and trainees not covered by an award each have a minimum wage level set nationally.
Standard of Living - Australia is number one.
It’s official: Australia is the No.1 place to be. Crikey Article.
Australia according to the OECD Australia OECD Better Life Index.
The Economic Intelligence Unit conducts a survey of numerous quantitative metric to determine the best countries to be born in. In 1984, for instance, the United States won hands down. These days, things have changed. The “Where to Be Born” survey, based on quality of life indices and other happiness metrics, predicts the countries that offer the greatest chance for a healthy, safe, and prosperous life.
The list has changed quite a bit since 1988 when countries like West Germany topped the charts (Germany is now tied at sixteenth).
2. Australia
Australia is ranked second on the Human Development Index and is the second best country to be born in. Australia is also the only non-European country to make the list, and the only country where English is the first language. The Oceanic country was ranked one of the best countries to be born in not only due to the country’s wealth – which includes rich gold and mineral deposits – but the quality of family life and the low level of crime. Australia also has one of the world’s highest life expectancies, with women expected to live to 86 years old. Despite being far removed from the rest of the world, living in Australia isn’t exactly the punishment it once was, making it once of the best countries for a young child’s future.
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Not the most powerful, influential, richest, or culturally significant.
Just the best.
Yeah, can i move in for awhile, i'd be willing to try it out
Of the 3 Americans I work with one has taken up citizenship, one has no plans to go back and is thinking about it, the other is thinking about Canadian citizenship as her boyfriend is Canadian, but both have no short term plans to leave.
If you are a plumber, electrician or have trade you can make bucket loads of cash.
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Because obviously we will be better off when people who can't survive on the current minimum wage are paid even less..
The Minimum Wage constraint (i.e. a price floor) induces upward pressure on the Unemployment Rate. We need to get rid of Minimum Wage immediately.
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Don't forget, we are also supposed to get rid of the socialist policies low-wage worker use to force those of us who do earn our money to support them.
It reduces the population at the low end of the gene pool and brings the unskilled labor pool back into balance with demand, resulting in higher wages. Until robots completely replace unskilled labor, reducing the demand to zero.
Dang, I'm just a biology research specialist
Not the most powerful, influential, richest, or culturally significant.
Just the best.
So, I was curious as to how it was that Australia ranked #2 in the quotes and then becomes the best in the post.
Number 2 to be born in....
Want to live in the world's happiest place? This is where you should go....
London (CNN) -- Australia has been revealed as the world's happiest industrialized nation, taking the title for the fourth year running.
The so-called "lucky country" beat Norway and Sweden to take the top spot in the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development's (OECD) Better Life Index.
Dang, I'm just a biology research specialist
Commercial, Agricultural,or Education... Biology wise Australia has some very interesting stuff?
Education, i guess? Mostly working for a University.
Hmmm funding is being cut to both Uni's and the CSIRO... Conservatives in power at the moment.
They will be out next election (3 years), or double dissolution (Soon I hope), the Conservatives may even sack the PM and we will get a new one (I don't see it happening).
Quirk of Australian politics - the Prime Minister can be sacked by his/her own party and replaced - It would be like the Democrats saying Obama is not working he is out and Clinton is in.
Its a good thing if the PM is a dud and a bad thing if the party is internally unstable.
Hmm, that's rather interesting. Well, guess I'll keep applying for jobs in the hope that one day they want me.
Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hour
And that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.
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Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hourAnd that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.Which as a little basic math will show, leaves the Dane with less than the American getting $7.25.
?!!?!?!
(20x40x50)=40,000-7500=32500x.65=21125+7500=28625
(7.25x40x52)=15,080
Plus the Dane will have far more access to a wider range of social services
Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hourAnd that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.Which as a little basic math will show, leaves the Dane with less than the American getting $7.25.
?!!?!?!
(20x40x50)=40,000-7500=32500x.65=21125+7500=28625
(7.25x40x52)=15,080
Plus the Dane will have far more access to a wider range of social services
I'm sorry. Did I need a snark tag?
And the social services is definitely true as well. Though a minimum wage worker in the US gets some subsidies and other services as well. Often including food stamps.
They also get a large helping of scorn, derision and condescension with them.
Ah, well... Yes I needed your snark tag :D
Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hourAnd that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.Which as a little basic math will show, leaves the Dane with less than the American getting $7.25.
?!!?!?!
(20x40x50)=40,000-7500=32500x.65=21125+7500=28625
(7.25x40x52)=15,080
Plus the Dane will have far more access to a wider range of social services
I never claimed that, but upon doing some searching given what the cost of living is in Denmark and the US, you are probably not any better off in Denmark even making that much more money per hour.
Denmark prices
United States prices
Those are averages.
Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hourAnd that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.Which as a little basic math will show, leaves the Dane with less than the American getting $7.25.
?!!?!?!
(20x40x50)=40,000-7500=32500x.65=21125+7500=28625
(7.25x40x52)=15,080
Plus the Dane will have far more access to a wider range of social services
I never claimed that, but upon doing some searching given what the cost of living is in Denmark and the US, you are probably not any better off in Denmark even making that much more money per hour.
Denmark prices
United States pricesThose are averages.
Just curious, which worker do you think makes more?
Denmark, $20/hour, with a local purchasing power of $109.
New York, $7.78/hour, with a local purchasing power of $100.
Those are based on your site that you linked. The purchasing power means that $100 buys $100 worth of stuff. Purchasing power of $150, means that $100 buys $150 worth of stuff.
Would you make "more" money living in Denmark making $20? Or New York making $7.87?
Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hourAnd that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.Which as a little basic math will show, leaves the Dane with less than the American getting $7.25.
?!!?!?!
(20x40x50)=40,000-7500=32500x.65=21125+7500=28625
(7.25x40x52)=15,080
Plus the Dane will have far more access to a wider range of social services
I never claimed that, but upon doing some searching given what the cost of living is in Denmark and the US, you are probably not any better off in Denmark even making that much more money per hour.
Those are averages.
Just curious, which worker do you think makes more?
Denmark, $20/hour, with a local purchasing power of $109.
New York, $7.78/hour, with a local purchasing power of $100.Those are based on your site that you linked. The purchasing power means that $100 buys $100 worth of stuff. Purchasing power of $150, means that $100 buys $150 worth of stuff.
Would you make "more" money living in Denmark making $20? Or New York making $7.87?
Well obviously that would be Denmark, except that the minimum wage in New York is $8.00 and set to go up on Jan 1, 2015 to $8.75 and $9.00 on Jan 1, 2016.
And of course there is this page.
If it weren't for the rent in NYC, it would be cheaper to live there.
Except you also get health care, etc. in Denmark.
Which you pay for as a tax.
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Except you also get health care, etc. in Denmark.Which you pay for as a tax.
You already covered that. No double-counting.
Denmark mcdonalds pays 20 dollars an hourAnd that worker is paying is paying over 35% taxes after $7500.Which as a little basic math will show, leaves the Dane with less than the American getting $7.25.
?!!?!?!
(20x40x50)=40,000-7500=32500x.65=21125+7500=28625
(7.25x40x52)=15,080
Plus the Dane will have far more access to a wider range of social services
I never claimed that, but upon doing some searching given what the cost of living is in Denmark and the US, you are probably not any better off in Denmark even making that much more money per hour.
Those are averages.
Just curious, which worker do you think makes more?
Denmark, $20/hour, with a local purchasing power of $109.
New York, $7.78/hour, with a local purchasing power of $100.Those are based on your site that you linked. The purchasing power means that $100 buys $100 worth of stuff. Purchasing power of $150, means that $100 buys $150 worth of stuff.
Would you make "more" money living in Denmark making $20? Or New York making $7.87?
Well obviously that would be Denmark, except that the minimum wage in New York is $8.00 and set to go up on Jan 1, 2015 to $8.75 and $9.00 on Jan 1, 2016.
And of course there is this page.
Yes, but the difference in consumer prices is 6%.
The difference in pay is over 80%.
Convince me poor people would be worse off with 74% more income.
Yes, VC, if it weren't for the costs of living, living places would be cheap.
Yes, but the difference in consumer prices is 6%.
The difference in pay is over 80%.
Convince me poor people would...
Consumer Prices in United States are 29.60% lower than in Denmark.
Since when does 29.6% = 6%?
Add in the much higher taxes, that start at a lower amount of pay. That incredible pay rate is rapidly disappearing. Add in union dues.
Yes, but the difference in consumer prices is 6%.
The difference in pay is over 80%.
Convince me poor people would...
Consumer Prices in United States are 29.60% lower than in Denmark.
Since when does 29.6% = 6%?
Add in the much higher taxes, that start at a lower amount of pay. That incredible pay rate is rapidly disappearing. Add in union dues.
You still haven't explained how a poor person is better off making LESS money.
And I was looking at the Copenhagen vs New York when I cited the 6%. Which is accurate. Stop dancing around the point though, convince me being paid less for the exact same job is better.
I did not say it was better, I am saying that once you take everything into account, that $20/hr isn't as much as looks like. The Dutch pay higher taxes, pay more for nearly everything they have to buy, etc.
Plus you keep comparing that $20 to the minimum wage, which isn't what the average pay from McDonalds is in the US. If you want to be accurate use that number (not sure what it is in NYC) but nationwide it's over $9.00 an hour.
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People from Denmark are called Danes, not Dutch.
The minimum wage and the Danish Big Mac
Googling indicates that the national median wage for McDonald's employees of 5 to 8 years is $9.15.
According to the article linked, $20 is the base wage for adults as negotiated by the unions (apparently there is no minimum wage in Denmark?) plus five weeks paid vacation. I don't know what the wage goes up to after 5 to 8 years.
Danes not Dutch
Ninja'ed by CA
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Stop dancing around the point though, convince me being paid less for the exact same job is better.
Your being paid less is better for me, as I can buy the Big Macs cheaper.
Modern conservatism == sociopathy holding a Bible. But definitely not reading it.
I did not say it was better, I am saying that once you take everything into account, that $20/hr isn't as much as looks like. The Dutch pay higher taxes, pay more for nearly everything they have to buy, etc.
Plus you keep comparing that $20 to the minimum wage, which isn't what the average pay from McDonalds is in the US. If you want to be accurate use that number (not sure what it is in NYC) but nationwide it's over $9.00 an hour.
Well let's test that shall we?
American fast food worker making $7.25/hr (the $9/hr+ figure includes shift managers, who make maybe $13). 2080 hours a year= $15080. But they don't get insurance or paid leave. Let's be super generous and say that, between social functions, family emergencies and illnesses they take 6 unpaid days off a year, so really they're working 2032 hours a year, for a total of $14,732.I'll take it as a given that someone making that little pays no state or federal taxes, but they still pay FICA (SS and Medicare) to the tune of about 8%, so a grand total of $13,553.44.
Now, Denmark pays its workers (roughly) $20/hr. Remember that they have 5 weeks (HOLY CHRIST!) paid vacation a year, so they're really only working 1880 hours/year and getting paid for 2080. But okay, 2080*$20=$41,600. After taxes that's $29,665.
Someone in Denmark gets paid 2.2 times as much for LESS work (1880 vs. 2032 hours). Really, for hours actually worked, more like 2.36 times the pay.
Their cost of living is, what'd you say, 30% higher on average? Let's just take that out of their earnings off the top so you can see a proper comparison. Like, let's just pretend that Danes make 30% less after taxes and compare those numbers. I'm sure it's not completely accurate but, hey, just for funsies.
Danes still make 1.66 times what their American counterparts make for an hour of work. If American workers were compensated equivalently, not even accounting for other "bonuses" like healthcare which I'll assume, given the low pay of a McD worker is paid for by Medicare, would be $12/hr.
That seems fair. How about we put the minimum wage at $12/hr?
I'm cool with that
But the real question is are the people who have to pay for that pay increase cool with it? Because the middle class are the ones we should ask if this is ok. They are the ones who will pay higher prices without an increase in wages.