I am potentially starting a new campaign for my group.
I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?
Our group plays by the rules. Tends to keep casters in check.
Have you ANY personal experience with casters being out of control in pathfinder? Or are you just having 3.5 flashbacks?
EDIT: Our group finds that E20 works very well
To call a spade a spade PF is not that much different than 3.5. Many of the same issues remain, and this is not the thread to list and debate them.
So you have no issues, nice. We generally don't either, but I do have a player (maybe 2) that like to push it...hard. So doing some research seeing how others like to maintain a balanced play field should not be a problem.
If your group changes nothing and are happy with it then I applaud you and your group, but it seems like you are just telling me I am trying to do it wrong. As such you are not helping.
Ah so it is just 3.5 flashbacks for 1-2 players.
Well I suggest actually playing a game of pathfinder before you go all "NERF EVERYTHING TOO STRONG!"
I am potentially starting a new campaign for my group.
I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?
Hello Oilhorse,
There are many ways to address the issue, but it would help if you defined your issue a bit further. Without going into a lengthy dissertation, how is magic "too much" for you, and what are you hoping to achieve in the end.
With a better understanding of this, we may be able to give you better suggestions.
'findel
I think the better question is:
What part of casters are you feeling make them unbalanced?
Is it they can make their own magic items?
Are their spells that are causing difficulty?
Do your martials not play well/smartly and feel left out?
Do the spellcasters get all the attention good and none of the attention bad?
Are some spells simply too effective and you haven't figured out how to counter them...or use them against the party?
Are there too many spells and you can't track them all?
Are you letting them get away with stuff and don't know why?
You are having problems challenging/killing casters in a fair and balanced way?
Put some thoughts into the answers to these questions, and a lot of the advice we'll give you will write itself.
==Aelryinth
I think it's pretty clear the OP had already made up his mind, and doesn;t want any opinions that conflict with that.
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Ah so it is just 3.5 flashbacks for 1-2 players.
Well I suggest actually playing a game of pathfinder before you go all "NERF EVERYTHING TOO STRONG!"
Ummm. We have. Since the release. Generally every Sat night. Obnoxious much?
You obviously have nothing to actually add to what I am asking. Please just move along.
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I think it's pretty clear the OP had already made up his mind, and doesn;t want any opinions that conflict with that.
As in made up my mind that I would like to hear from those that have ideas on how to keep the balance between Full Casters and non casters as much as possible.
I know E6/E8 is a way.
Are their other ideas. Keep CRB? Okay, kinda doing the already...at least to start.
Increased casting time...focused fire the casters? I think that is picking on them. I am not that blood thirsty.
Limit the resources available (i.e. wands scrolls) good point.
NO one directly mentioned it, but it seemed hints at by a few, but eliminating the 15 minute work day...that is something I try and do already, and our group is good about that as it is.
I am paying attention to those that have read what I am looking for and are genuinely giving suggestion. I won't sit here and get told I am doing it wrong because others don't think there is a balance issue.
Wanna equal the playing field try this
How is this by the by?
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Has anyone had much experience with UM Words of Power? I thought they tone down the power level of spells.In the hands of a true munchkin system master, the effect seems to be quite the opposite. They tend to leave a lot of room for corner interpretations of Words.
I really still don't see the balance issue between a 6th level caster vs a 6 level martial. Most of the caster imbalance occurs considerably later in the game.
If my best option is to just go E6 I will. And I agree there is not much, if any, balance issue between 6 level PCs.
If I see some suggestions that I can use and keep normal progression I will.
Your XP with WoP is not what I had hoped. I reading through them it seemed they were gonna be a bit weaker.
Just go back to 1e or 2e exp tables.
You know the ones with different levels of exp needed for different classes?
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I think the better question is:
What part of casters are you feeling make them unbalanced?
Is it they can make their own magic items?
--No. In fact they rarely do.Are their spells that are causing difficulty?
--I guess to a degree.Do your martials not play well/smartly and feel left out?
--We are a fairly relaxed group. My most "problematic" player intentionally strives to exploit class interactions. He is is not really a problem...he does not try and screw anyone over...he tones it down and ramps it up depending on the situation. He has the biggest "system mastery" of the group, one of those idiot savant types that just "gets it" no matter the game we are playing.I do not want to make it seem like I am trying to shut him down, but I want to lower the impact of casters to lessen the party reliance on his want to "ramp it up"
Do the spellcasters get all the attention good and none of the attention bad?
---Not sure what you mean by thisAre some spells simply too effective and you haven't figured out how to counter them...or use them against the party?
---Eh...meh. I see what you mean but not sure it fits.Are there too many spells and you can't track them all?
--Not so much. I have a solid system competence.Are you letting them get away with stuff and don't know why?
--No. I give leeway...I expect it also. We are fairly relaxed...to a point.You are having problems challenging/killing casters in a fair and balanced way?
---This could be a fair statement.Put some thoughts into the answers to these questions, and a lot of the advice we'll give you will write itself.
==Aelryinth
Hope this helps.
Make a list of the spells you find the most problematic and present them to us.
I think we'll be able to give you some solid advice then.
==Aelryinth
Ah so it is just 3.5 flashbacks for 1-2 players.
Well I suggest actually playing a game of pathfinder before you go all "NERF EVERYTHING TOO STRONG!"
Ummm. We have. Since the release. Generally every Sat night. Obnoxious much?
You obviously have nothing to actually add to what I am asking. Please just move along.
It's funny that when someone ask you if you play pathfinder, you respond with "it's not that different from 3.5" instead of answering the question.
Psssst Casters are far more balanced if you actually read the rules and spell descriptions instead of letting the rules be interpreted to the GM.
(Your trouble players will just break your game with Paladins and Barbars anyways)
AND keep your game free of 3.5 supplemental material. Broken 3.5 splatbooks are even WORSE in Pathfinder.
Debatably, but edition war.
It's not an edition war unless 4.0 is brought into play. Considering that many 3.5 players thought much of the 3.5 splatbooks were unbalanced, it's a statement that will hardly raise the same kind of shackles.AND keep your game free of 3.5 supplemental material. Broken 3.5 splatbooks are even WORSE in Pathfinder.Debatably, but edition war.
Some of it was balanced. Some of it wasn't. Some of it was unplayable, some was better than some pathfinder material. Depends on what in particular your talking about.
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I ran a game where we wanted to address this issue. Each character had to start the game with 2 levels of rogue, ninja or scout (this was 3.5) and 2 levels of whatever class they were playing. Casters could retrain one of these levels when they lost a caster level in a prestige class so all caster were effectively 2 levels behind in their casting while most of the melee types were able to take advantage of those levels.
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Ah so it is just 3.5 flashbacks for 1-2 players.
Well I suggest actually playing a game of pathfinder before you go all "NERF EVERYTHING TOO STRONG!"
Ummm. We have. Since the release. Generally every Sat night. Obnoxious much?
You obviously have nothing to actually add to what I am asking. Please just move along.
It's funny that when someone ask you if you play pathfinder, you respond with "it's not that different from 3.5" instead of answering the question.
Psssst Casters are far more balanced if you actually read the rules and spell descriptions instead of letting the rules be interpreted to the GM.
(Your trouble players will just break your game with Paladins and Barbars anyways)
Y'ok....thx.
OilHorse, I have been running an E6 game with WoP for about a year now. I ran a High level game for years, with optimized characters, and it simply burned me out as DM. Combined with shorter gaming sessions because we are all getting older (Mid 30's with families), I simply had to tell my players that the options were someone else takes over DM'ing, or we shift into a lower powered game that didn't requires as much prep-work on my part. Someone stepped up, and DMed for the high level characters... for about 2 months Lol. After that, everyone rolled up some new characters and I was back behind the screen.
Like anything, if you want a Low Magic Fantasy make sure that's the game you're players want to play, and that they understand that the goal is not to try and "Break" the setting. Some players are so used to having to make ultra-optimized characters to survive, they do it without even realizing it (I have 2 who do this, slowly getting better).
A few Things i suggest looking into.
I second the Incantations rules, great for this type of game.
Pact Magic 1 and 2 from Radiance House, Also great.
A few things of note. If you are sticking with E6/E8 Words of Power will make for low powered casters (I suggest going with E8, or designing Capstone feats that allow access to 4th level spell slots for full casters, and 3rd level slots for Bards/Inquisitors/Magus).
You do need to do some legwork on the Effect words before hand. Example, Alignment Shield does not list the added benefits of protection from evil, such as hedging out summons and preventing mind control. I suggest rectifying that. E6/E8 Words of power is in fact less powerful, but after that things can start getting wonky fast.
Kobold Press is putting out a book called Deep Magic, should come out around April I think. It should have Improved Words of Power rules in it (among lots of other awesome stuff).
Another thing to keep an eye on, is Standard Action Summon's. RAW, all summon spells in WoP are standard actions. I'm going to suggest something that is going to be VERY unpopular with a lot of people because of this. Allow only one summoned monster per caster (Unless the player eats the Boost cost of Selected Target Word). Surprise round Standard action Summon, then first round Standard action summon is crazy powerful, and tends to slow combats way down.
Finally, in order to keep things interesting for the caster players, and to cover holes in the WoP system, I allow players to discover Tomes with rare spells in them as part of treasure. I'll usually pick an obscure spell from something like Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Magic, or even from 1001 spells (Rite Publishing), or another 3rd parts source. Once a player discovers these spells, they add them to there spellbook or list of spells known. In the case of Clerics, these spells are individual to to the cleric who finds them, it doesn't unlock them for the entire religion.
These actual spells require a full round action to cast, but provide players with interesting and unique advantages (they are also great adventure hooks).
I hope this helps.
1) Make casters a bit MAD.
wizards/magi use:
intelligence for max spell level, bonus spells and several class abilities and charisma for everything else.
Most if not all other classes will use wisdom/charisma instead.
2) remove problematic spells
3) Don't allow single class characters, 1 lvl in another class for every 3 levels in your main class(+PrC) should be fine.
You'd end up with a wizard/cleric 15/5.
lvl 1 (1) - 1st lvl spells
lvl 3 (3) - 2nd lvl spells
lvl 6 (5/1) - 3rd lvl spells
lvl 9 (7/2) - 4th lvl spells
lvl 11 (9/2) - 5th lvl spells
lvl 14 (11/3) - 6th lvl pells
lvl 17 (13/4) - 7th lvl spells
lvl 19 (15/4) - 8th lvl spells
The best caster you would get is likely:
wizard 5 / MT 10 / cleric 5 or similar combination, if you combine this with the other points I think the game will be very playable up to the 16's with little effort.
On Summons:
The 1 Summon in effect rule was effectively what 1E had. A summoned monster basically did nothing if you didn't actively attempt to control it. So you couldn't summon monsters and go do something else, you had to actively control them. It wasn't like Pokémon.
Likewise, there were two ways it could rebound on you. A Dispel magic could destroy your control over a monster without getting rid of it until it's duration was up. The summoned monster would then promptly turn on you.
The second was that a dispel magic could STEAL control of your monster from you...and then turn it back on you, of course!
Conjuration is a very powerful school. Summoning up spellcasting minions that can cast spells for you is basically a force multiplier. As such, it should come with some hefty drawbacks.
Prot/Evil was absolute protection against summoned creatures because it was assumed most conjurors would use it to protect themselves against their own released minions!
==Aelryinth
Are their spells that are causing difficulty?
--I guess to a degree.
Specifics? You could try using more monsters with spell resistance. Maybe even a SR heavy campaign with a very cool story-based reason why most creatures have SR. This will probably result in most players changing to buffing type spellcasters, which may be more your desire.
Do the spellcasters get all the attention good and none of the attention bad?
---Not sure what you mean by this
Do the enemies target the PC spellcasters? Intelligent enemies should recognize the danger that a PC spellcaster poses. They should take steps to limit/hinder/etc PC spellcasters.
You are having problems challenging/killing casters in a fair and balanced way?
---This could be a fair statement.
IME, spellcasters tend to be very powerful when they pump out their top spells, and then reduce in power as those slots are used up. I'd recommend controlling what magic items are available, rods of meta magic seem to be one of the main problems.
Plan several encounters per day so that spellcasters have to carefully restrict when they cast their best spells.
Keep track of time
How long does it take to unlock the door, disarm the trap, search for secret doors, loot the bodies, to walk to the end of the hallway, etc....
Once those Buffs are running you nickle and dime them on every minute of time
1) Make casters a bit MAD.
wizards/magi use:
intelligence for max spell level, bonus spells and several class abilities and charisma for everything else.
Most if not all other classes will use wisdom/charisma instead.
2) remove problematic spells
3) Don't allow single class characters, 1 lvl in another class for every 3 levels in your main class(+PrC) should be fine.
You'd end up with a wizard/cleric 15/5.
lvl 1 (1) - 1st lvl spells
lvl 3 (3) - 2nd lvl spells
lvl 6 (5/1) - 3rd lvl spells
lvl 9 (7/2) - 4th lvl spells
lvl 11 (9/2) - 5th lvl spells
lvl 14 (11/3) - 6th lvl pells
lvl 17 (13/4) - 7th lvl spells
lvl 19 (15/4) - 8th lvl spellsThe best caster you would get is likely:
wizard 5 / MT 10 / cleric 5 or similar combination, if you combine this with the other points I think the game will be very playable up to the 16's with little effort.
All of this sounds like a good way to go. I plan on limiting full casters when I launch a new campaign (..one of these days..), and I am tending toward the forced multiclass technique.
I have considered rebuilding the spell chart progressions so you end up with 6th or 7th level spells. But then what if we want to go "epic"; I think it is easier to just say 'no more than 2/3 character level in full spellcasting class. This means that 1st level must be in something else, and every third level after that, ending with 13th casting level at 20th character=7th level spells.
The only problem I see with this is that it forces choices which are sometimes "out of character" from what you otherwise might do. Particularly with Wizard/Sorcerers; the best choice for multiclass is Rogue, or perhaps Cleric. You lose the true Wizard archetype. So, I have been thinking about a "Scholar" or "Academic" class akin to the Smart Hero from d20Modern, with "thinkin" abilities. Something that would synergize both mechanically and, more importantly, thematically with the classic Wizard.
BTW, have you seen the spellcasting classes from d20 Modern? Limited to 5th level spells. But they can keep increasing their caster levels, and get more and more lower level spells as they go up in level.
They just don't get the awesome stuff of late levels...not that you need more then 5th level spells to be awesome.
==Aelryinth
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BTW, have you seen the spellcasting classes from d20 Modern? Limited to 5th level spells. But they can keep increasing their caster levels, and get more and more lower level spells as they go up in level.
They just don't get the awesome stuff of late levels...not that you need more then 5th level spells to be awesome.
==Aelryinth
I thought something like this...Let them continue on regular progression, but only get spells up to Level x (Lvl 4 spells most likely, maybe Level 5 to allow Raise Dead for Clerics).
All slots gained after that were to be filled with lower level spells of the casters choosing, and no High Ability bonus spells.
Just did not think that getting to spam lower level spells was really keeping the high power level of Full Casters down.
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Specifics? You could try using more monsters with spell resistance. Maybe even a SR heavy campaign with a very cool story-based reason why most creatures have SR. This will probably result in most players changing to buffing type spellcasters, which may be more your desire.
-----Actually I want to go the other way. Worry less about the saves and SR of monsters because of spells.
Do the enemies target the PC spellcasters? Intelligent enemies should recognize the danger that a PC spellcaster poses. They should take steps to limit/hinder/etc PC spellcasters.
---Yes. i do to a point, but to a point it is also bordering on picking on a PC and trying to kill them...not fun for too many people involved. I am not afraid of having a PC death...but focus fire and swarm attacking is a little too much for how I like to approach running a game
IME, spellcasters tend to be very powerful when they pump out their top spells, and then reduce in power as those slots are used up. I'd recommend controlling what magic items are available, rods of meta magic seem to be one of the main problems.
---Funny thing is that our group rarely used those (rods)...and wands and scrolls. We rarely make our own items. Yet the casterpower problem is still around.
Plan several encounters per day so that spellcasters have to carefully restrict when they cast their best spells.
--I agree.
Personally I'm not a fan of E6, or any of the quick n dirty caster fixes. Why? Because it's not the casters that are broken, it's the spells themselves.
So what's the solution? I recommend telling your caster players that any spell is up for grabs, but they're all subject to retro-nerfs if they become problematic. ("Oh, this first time was a magical fluke. It won't work so spectacularly next time.") In fact, I recently wrote a blog post with some guidelines on the topic. My experience is mostly with 3.0 and 3.5, so PF may have already addressed some problem spells. But like you say, PF is essentially the same game, so hopefully you'll find it handy!
Other fixes might be easier in the short run, but they're like trying to fix a broken leg with Robitussin. And E6 is outright amputation. Ugh!
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Personally I'm not a fan of E6, or any of the quick n dirty caster fixes. Why? Because it's not the casters that are broken, it's the spells themselves.
So what's the solution? I recommend telling your caster players that any spell is up for grabs, but they're all subject to retro-nerfs if they become problematic. ("Oh, this first time was a magical fluke. It won't work so spectacularly next time.") In fact, I recently wrote a blog post with some guidelines on the topic. My experience is mostly with 3.0 and 3.5, so PF may have already addressed some problem spells. But like you say, PF is essentially the same game, so hopefully you'll find it handy!
Other fixes might be easier in the short run, but they're like trying to fix a broken leg with Robitussin. And E6 is outright amputation. Ugh!
A blanket rule is better for me. I think that doing it "per spell" will be too arbitrary, and not even in the "I am getting too tough" but more in a way that I let stuff slide and then it is hard to get back.
I am lazy by nature and just dropping a house rule down, or using E6, is better to me than making extra work.
EDIT: Reading your blog...some interesting stuff to think on.
Keep in mind some of the characteristics of the schools
Abjurations that are in close proximity create visible distortions. The normal rules are about spells being within 10' of each other for more than 24 hours, but it's not unreasonable to say that when you stack a bunch of Abjurations on top of each other something similar happens in a much shorter time period.
Conjuration Summoning - If the summoned creature dies it can't be summoned again for 24 hours. Enforce this. Make summoners have a list of the creatures they summon. When his Celestial Eagle gets killed, he doesn't get to see it again till tomorrow. Also when the Summoned Creature disappears all the Spells it casted End.
Conjuration Teleportation - Anything that blocks the Astral Plane blocks teleport spells. I've seen whole settings where the Astral Plane is cut off.
Divination Scrying Always creates a sensor that can be detected with a perception roll. Enemies that are worried about being scryed on are going to have attentive guards keeping an eye open.
Keep the Stacking effects rules in mind always. Particularly "Same Effect with Differing Results" that means you get 1 Resist Energy and 1 Protection from energy. a second casting of either overwrites the previous one.
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If conjuration is a problem, make each creature summoned a separate spell the wizard has to learn, ala Magic. Instead of being able to grab anything off the list, he has to learn Summon x, y or z as separate forms of the same spell...and memorize them that way.
Bonuses if he brings his cards or shouts out, "Celestial Eagle Skyscream, I choose you for a 2nd level spell!" and throws it down.
==Aelryinth
I am potentially starting a new campaign for my group.
I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?
Our group plays by the rules. Tends to keep casters in check.
Have you ANY personal experience with casters being out of control in pathfinder? Or are you just having 3.5 flashbacks?
EDIT: Our group finds that E20 works very well
Depends on what you call being out of control. If causing the martial to becoe more and more irrelevant counts than yes, I have personal experience in that.
In our kingmaker game that was the case in my opinion. When we stopped the AP at around level 10 or 11 even the cheesy, houseruled titan mauler with his large two-handed reach weapon was just going through the motions. The ranger rerolled a caster somewhat earlier.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I've found that the best way to keep casters 'under control' is just to give the enemies that you don't want getting one-shot some Hero Points. At least three. Casters will have to go through four 'one shot kill' spells to get through the guy's defenses unless you get some really unlucky rolls on those GM dice. That'll give melee plenty of time to move in and do their thing.
It's not only about save or die spells. If the party casters debuff the enemy hard enough that he's no real threat anymore it doesn't matter if it is the martial that depletes his hp or a summoned monster.
It's not only about save or die spells. If the party casters debuff the enemy hard enough that he's no real threat anymore it doesn't matter if it is the martial that depletes his hp or a summoned monster.
And don't almost all debuffs require saving throws as well? Even if they don't allow saves (like certain witch hexes), hero points can help make up the difference. It has worked wonders for making 'bosses' more threatening in my games.
And don't almost all debuffs require saving throws as well?The good ones don't.
Hero points help monsters overcome the weakest spells: save-or-die and blast. They do almost nothing against the more potent buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control spells.
Not if you're creative enough!
Enemy tries to box you in with a wall of stone? Use a hero point to act out of turn and move to the other side before it forms. Enemy has extra buffs? Use a hero point to either have an extra action to cast dispel magic or simply add a +8 to your dispel check.
Heck, since there is a section for 'special actions' in the hero points rules that are only limited by GM discretion, there isn't anything stopping the GM from using 1 hero point to overcome any condition that a player could possibly inflict upon him including debuffs. Sure, some may think it is cheap, but in my opinion making a 'boss' hard to kill makes the fight more epic. Plus, the fact that the boss still had to use a hero point to overcome the condition/debuff is still satisfying to the player.
In one game I was a part of a player rolled a 20 on a hydraulic push that would have blown 4 minions and the boss into shark infested waters. The GM used a hero point to move the boss out of the way. The combat lasted about 3 to 4 more rounds because of this one action. I'm glad it happened because it gave my magus a chance to go toe to toe with him.
And don't almost all debuffs require saving throws as well?The good ones don't.
Hero points help monsters overcome the weakest spells: save-or-die and blast. They do almost nothing against the more potent buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control spells.
I'm sorry, so the point is that casters can help other people be too good, ergo casters are broken? Not seeing how people working together to overcome challenges is the system not working as intended.