So my group's about to do a good ol' fashion dungeon crawl, and I've been itching to play a Reach Cleric.
My only problem is that I haven't played a divine caster since 3.0 was the new kid on the block!
What's a good "standard lineup" of spells for such a character these days? Maybe one lineup for low level and another one for mid level? (I don't expect the game to get into high levels, and I should have a clue by then anyway, lol).
Any help is greatly appreciated. :D
That is a great resource, and I've looked through it a couple times.
My issue isn't necessarily, "what spells are good?"
My issue is more like, "how many of those good spells should I prepare on a typical day?"
There are so few decent divine spells this is easy.
Level 1
Bless
Bless
Bless
(don't forget Bless)
SM1
leave open slots and spend 15 minutes to fill them on the fly as needed.
Mid-Level
SM3
SM3
SM3
(don't forget summon monster 3)
Prayer
leave open slots and spend 15 minutes to fill them on the fly as needed.
If you're the kind of bleeding heart cleric that likes to put smiles on the faces of your allies then bring along
Magic Vestment (pearl o power)
GMW (pearl o power)
Blessing of Fervor
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Here's my typical Reach Cleric spell list at 1st and 5th level, for Domain Luck. YMMV.
Reach Cleric Spell List at 1st level:
3 1st level Cleric spells
Truestrike (D)
Bless
Divine Favor (with trait Fate's Favored, otherwise Open)
Reach Cleric Spell List at 5th level:
5-4-2 1st-2nd-3rd counting Domain slots and only 14 Wis
1st
Truestrike (D)
Bless
Divine Favor
Shield of Faith
Open
2nd
Aid (D)
Bull's Strength
Weapon of Awe (or another Bull's Strength, depending on fights per day)
Grace
Open
3rd
Protection from Energy (D)
Summon Monster III
Open
***************
Once you know what you face for the day you might replace some of the Open spells. There are way more good spells than you have room for.
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Personally, I would advice avoiding pedrodevaca's suggestion like the plague.
Otherwise, might as well play a Reach fighter and not be so gimped.
great spells to have would be
Create Water
Detect Magic
Enhanced Diplomacy
Guidance
Read Magic
Spark
Stabalize
Vigor
Bless (1 at most)
Command (only if you have a high Wis for the DC)
Divine Favor
Entropic Shield (if you fight a lot of ranged attacks)
Liberating Command
Murderous Command (only if you have a high Wis for DC)
Protection from Evil (or other alignment)
Shield of Faith
Bull's Strength
Burst of Radiance!!!
Communal Protection from Evil (or other alignment)
Ghostbane Dirge
Grace
Shield Other
Soundburst
Spiritual Weapon
Dispel Magic
Magic Circle vs Evil (or other alignment)
Magic Vestment
Meld into Stone
Summon Monster 3 (only if you have a way to reduce casting time)
And don't be stingy on scrolls/wands of some of the most common Remove/Cure spells, and those that are not really dependant on CL or DC too much.
In my defense, my post was somewhat tongue in cheek, maybe that wasn't very obvious. I like how DM Beckett could have easily given his own advice without taking pokes at people, but why do that? This is the internet after all.
In any case, the other suggestions surely do point out some decent spells, nearly all of which are better as scrolls or wands than hard cast from a melee Cleric who probably isn't sporting a completely maxed Wisdom.
He likely does not have many bonus spells and his attack spells likely have poor save DCs. Therefore, he should focus on buff and enabling spells with long durations whose effects and/or duration scale with caster level. Any useful spells that do not scale with caster level should be on a wand or scroll to save slots.
Many of my suggestions assume that for the majority of fights you do not have endless standard actions to use before every battle. If your GM or campaign features many fights where you have tons of time to cast buff spells, then some self-buffs become better as hard cast spells and things shift a bit in my analysis.
Divine Favor = wand. No reason to hard cast this spell. Avoid this spell at level 1 when you can cast Bless that does the same thing but for the entire party. Even once the spell scales at higher caster levels, there are often better more versatile buffs to cast. If you find you have tons of standard actions to prep before a battle, this spell can be really good (luck bonus is nice). However it is only worth it as a hard cast spell if you are high enough caster level for the spell to scale. Before that, its always a wand.
Bull's Strength = most of the time this is a really bad buff. Bless is patently better for a similar effect that is much more versatile and benefits the entire party. If you have time to cast Bless AND a bunch of single target buffs it is a decent one at low level. However, its value decreases with level and gear acquisition. I always keep this spell available, but I use it as a potion since there is almost no benefit to hard casting it and there are many much more powerful 2nd level spells competing for limited slots.
Command, Murderous Command, Hold Person, Compassionate Ally, Forbid Action or any other save-based attack spell = best for WIS focused builds which most reach builds are not. That being said, the best of these spells (Command, Forbid Action and Compassionate Ally) are very powerful so they are still 'ok' save or lose spells, even if they don't stick very often. See summon monster for a better alternative to a save-based attack spell 9 times out of 10.
Summon Monster = I think if you want to cast offensive spells, reach builds are almost always better off casting summon monster spells and using Combat Reflexes feat to offset the full round casting time and the loss of melee attacks. Summon Monster spells have no save, always work, and break action economy for any character. They are often the best spell to cast in any given situation for any casting character - yes they are that good.
They are offense, defense, no-save, battlefield control and CC all in one, and that's just with a badger or two, let alone some of the cool SLA available at higher levels. Anytime, a summon monster lends a bonus to an ally, soaks an attack, forces or prevents enemy movement - you win. However the effectiveness of any summon monster spell is limited by the tactical skills and creativity of the player, so YMMV.
You do not need a way of reducing casting time for summon monster to be amazing. Reducing the casting time to a standard action is amazingly powerful, and from a power-gaming perspective should be pursued for any caster who uses summon spells. SM spells are so powerful in their own right that they are still superior casting choices despite the casting time. SM spells are so powerful in their own right, that if/when you are able to buff the spell and lower its casting time down to an std action, it borders on retarded to not cast SM every single round.
Truestrike = awesome spell. Way better than spending 10 rounds self-buffing for a similar effect. However it is never worth hard casting. Always cast from a wand.
Shield of Faith / Entropic Shield and other single target defensive buff spells = First off, in Pathfinder Offense is better than Defense, nearly always. So in general if you want to cast a buff and you need to pick one, you should look at offensive buffs first. Secondly if you want to cast a defensive buff, you should look at Protection and Circle spells first, then consider these spells only if the Protection spells won't work or they are already cast. Even Obscuring Mist often makes a much better defensive spell than these single target spells. OM gives much better defense statistically, works against all attacks even touch, can effect the entire party and has far more uses than defense.
Resist Energy > Protection from Energy = Energy protection is always situational dependent upon the enemies you face. If you think you might need energy protection, resist energy is almost always the superior choice.
Liberating Command = awesome amazing spell. I would highly recommend memorizing this spell. No target restrictions, immediate action cast. Way better than many defensive buffs.
Protection from Evil = If you need to cast a defensive buff, Protection is almost always the best defensive buff you can cast. Makes other single target defensive buff spells like shield of faith, entropic shield, etc. look stupid. However, this spell is almost never worth hard casting. Keep a wand of Protection from Evil (usually the most useful one, campaign dependent) and a scroll or two of Protection from everything else.
Dispel Magic = nice spell in Pathfinder. I like to have at one ready to be hard cast from the party, so it might be very valuable. I would argue that the primary caster pick it up since a Reach Cleric will have limited spell slots/day
Spiritual Weapon = cool spell, better for WIS based builds. Amazing en masse versus casters. This spell goes way up in value if you have allies who can cast it as well. Stacking this spell on a single enemy can effectively tank many characters. For a reach cleric there are usually better spells to cast, like summon monster, but it can be a really cool spell in certain situations. Its bigger cousin, Spiritual Ally, is an amazing spell, really good for reach clerics.
Bless / Prayer / Blessing of Fervor = if you find you have limited standard actions to prep for battles, multi-target spells are always better than single target spells. These are the best buff spells in the game for their spell level. They are multi-target, good duration, flexible, and benefit the most character types and builds compared to other buff spells. Basically if you want to cast a buff and can only cast one or two, these spells are THE spells to cast 9 times out of 10.
Prayer is even better, a multi-target buff and no-save debuff. It's the best buff spell in the game until Blessing of Fervor. It outclasses a 6th level party buff spell (Mass Bull's Strength) which yields a similar net benefit but to a much more restricted range of characters for a 6th level spell slot!
Finally, Blessing of Fervor is the best buff in the game for a long time - better than Haste, same duration but more flexibility.
There are other sub-par spells on the above lists but they suffer from the same problems as one or more of the spells I listed above, and so there isn't really any reason to repeat them.
Looking at the other two lists, Magda has a much more effective spell list for a reach cleric than DM Beckett, assuming your reach cleric's WIS isn't maxed. If you have a high WIS, DM Beckett's list is decent. The attack spells he chose aren't the best for the given level, but they are still effective and fun.
The point of my previous post was that Bless, Summon Monster and Prayer are so good for the first few spell levels compared to other Divine Spells, they become easy choices for your reach cleric's limited spell slots. Sure they may not be the most exciting spells, but they will handle 90% of the situations you and your party will want you to cast a spell, and if they don't, take 15 minutes and fill an open slot to get the spell you need.
There is my less tongue in cheek answer.
-Pedro
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In my defense, my post was somewhat tongue in cheek, maybe that wasn't very obvious. I like how DM Beckett could have easily given his own advice without taking pokes at people, but why do that? This is the internet after all.
I apologize. I wasn't meaning it to sound as mean as it kind of came off. I was trying to say that by focusing on just a few spells, it's kind of defeating the purpose of playing a Cleric (vs an Oracle or a normal Fighter). I should have instead I would avoid focusing on just one spell per spell level.
Part of the Cleric's strength is in versatility, and I think that a Fighter's weapon training would basically surpass the Bless, (in my opinion would make for a better Wand than Divine Favor, but matter of tastes, really).
Divine Favor offers a Luck bonus, to both Att and Dmg, where Bless offers a Morale bonus to attacks and Saves vs Fear (which may or may not be common with a given DM). Bless is nice in that it affects everyone, but at the same time it's your action and needs to be done very quickly or it is kind of a wasted spell.
I apologize. I wasn't meaning it to sound as mean as it kind of came off. I was trying to say that by focusing on just a few spells, it's kind of defeating the purpose of playing a Cleric (vs an Oracle or a normal Fighter). I should have instead I would avoid focusing on just one spell per spell level.
No problem man, thanks!
I totally agree and I wouldn't seriously suggest a level 1 cleric fill their spell list with Bless.Divine Favor is an awesome spell since Luck bonuses are hard to come by and stack with everything. But it is balanced by a duration that does not scale, meaning you will always have to use a std action every fight to get it up and running. And further balanced by being self-only. At low levels, most enemies die in two hits, and I have found it is often not worth spending resources to fully buff rather than roll an attack and have a chance of killing the enemy outright. At higher levels, when enemies get a bit crazier and Divine Favor begins to scale, I value the spell more highly. Of course, it is all context and campaign dependent.
Like you say, Clerics are extremely versatile and can do many different things. Maybe the OP can help us help him and chime in and give us a sense of what he wants his Cleric to be able to do really well. What things he doesn't care about (i.e. Channel Energy?), etc.
Getting back on track....
The best single target buff for a reach cleric is a spell that hasn't been mentioned yet....
Enlarge Person!
The Growth subdomain is one way to gain the ability to Enlarge yourself. Otherwise you need to work with your party's arcane caster or do some Half-elf alternative racial trait shenanigans to be able to cast it yourself. There are probably other ways I'm not thinking of to get it on your spell list.
Thanks for the replies everyone! It's given me some insights to work with. :)
As for what "kind" of Cleric, I'm looking at the (sort of) cookie cutter Reach build. Desna as my deity with the Luck and Travel domains. Low Int and Cha so can't be very focused on channeling. And since I can't work with a high Wis, I'm looking to be a buffer/fixer rather than a debuffer or blaster. :)
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Magda is a 9th level PFS reach Cleric Evangelist in Slow Advancement. It's true that items can often substitute for cast spells.
Enlarge Person is the best Reach Cleric buff, overall. Being Large is most important when facing large foes with reach. A wand of Enlarge Person is mostly useful as a pre-buff. The one round casting makes it hard to use effectively once combat starts. Growth Domain version of Enlarge Person is a swift action.
Magda found it useful to optimize Divine Favor. The traits Fate's Favor and Magical Linneage(Divine Favor), combined with feat Quicken Spell, allows for Quickened Divine Favor as a 4th level spell. At 9th level Divine Favor gives +4 to hit & +4 damage luck bonus that stacks with most other buffs. This also allows for Quickened Truestrike to replace the standard 5th level Domain spell. At lower levels divine favor is questionable, unless you can pre-buff.
Magda typically spends one round buffing for a major fight: Swift Action Divine Favor, Move Action to start Inspire Courage (aka Bardsong) , Standard Action cast a spell e.g. Blessing Of Fervor or Summon Monster, possibly 5' step to receive AoOs. That sequence of actions brings out big buffs for all allies, a huge self-buff, and some early battlefield control.