Hi guys, I'm going to let my player pick bonus feats in place of rogue talents, do you think I should restrict the kind of feat he can pick(like hoq the fighter can only pick combat feats)? He can still pick rogue talents if he wants, I'm just wondering how this could affect the game.
Personally, I view rogues as a class that should be really good at using skills, so I think think the "skill feats" (Acrobatic, Alertness, Animal, Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Prodigy, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, and Stealthy) would be the best "bonus feats" for a rogue.
However, I don't really think any of those feats are worth a rogue talent (which are generally worse than feats). My solution is to give rogues a bonus feat class feature where they gain one feat from the list above at 1st, 5th 10th, 15th, and 20th (though I might change that to 1st, 5th, and every four levels thereafter or 2nd, 6th, and every four levels thereafter).
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I guess Honorable goblin's concern is that a feat is worth more than a Rogue talent.
Just to clarify my position: it seems to me that the general consensus (at least here in the forums) is that, generally, feats are more powerful than rogue talents; the "skill" feats are also widely considered to be weaker than most feats. My concern is that the skill feats are even weaker then most rogue talents (so it goes most feats>most talents>skill feats), which is why I suggested leaving the "Rogue Talents" feature unchanged and granting a separate class feature to gain the skill feats as bonus feats (at either the same rate as wizards or rangers).
Yes there are some talents that give bonus feats, and generally they are considered stronger than most other talents.
As far as adding talents that would grant other feats, here's a list I've made up:
Butter Fingers: A rogue that selects this talent gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat.
No-Goodnik: A rogue who selects this talent gains Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat.
Rope-A-Dope: A rogue with this talent gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat.
Shadow Striker: A rogue with this talent gains Shadow Strike as a bonus feat.
Additionally, you could make the following Advanced Talents (Some give bonus feats, a couple are basically Weapon Snatcher that apply to other maneuvers):
Agile Legerdemain: A rogue that selects this talent gains Quick Steal as a bonus feat. The rogue must have the Improved Steal feat before selecting this talent.
Feint Master: A rogue that selects this talent gains Greater Feint as a bonus feat. The rogue must have the Improved Feint feat before selecting this talent.
Got Your Nose (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to perform a dirty trick combat maneuver. A rogue must have the Improved Dirty Trick feat before selecting this talent.
Master Thief: A rogue that selects this talent gains Greater Steal as a bonus feat. The rogue must have the Improved Steal feat before selecting this talent.
True Ne'er-Do-Well: A rogue that selects this talent gains Greater Dirty Trick as a bonus feat. The rogue must have the Improved Dirty Trick feat before selecting this talent.
Yoink (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to perform a steal combat maneuver.
[Insert Clever Talent Name Here]: A rogue that selects this talent gains Quick Dirty Trick as a bonus feat. The rogue must have the Improved Dirty Trick feat before selecting this talent.
Of course, you could do both (add these talents AND give the rogue separate bonus feats chosen from the list of skill feats).
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or, let them pick a single feat which they may bypass pre-reqs with by altering an already existing talent. this way they can have a 'special trick' that the build might not normally allow:
Combat Trick (changes in ):
A rogue that selects this talent may select any bonus combat feat she qualifies for (see Feats).
...No-Goodnik...
Sounds too much like Russian negodnik ("негодник"), which means good-for-nothig, wretch, a**hole or a slob... sometimes a trickster/pranker... :D
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I also think rogue talents are weaker than feats, so it got me thinking, maybe the devs should've designed the rogue more like the fighter. Both are "tabula rasa" classes, that is, they carry less flavor baggage and their functions overlap a lot with other classes. So much that the rogue is a worse rogue than several other classes.
My point is, the rogue should've been made embracing his genericness. Every rogue class feature should've been made into a feat and grouped into some sort of "ambush feats" moniker, and given as bonus feats every even level like the fighters combat feats. This way we could have feat trees to become a better thief, spy, assassin, or whatever roguish thing you want to be, just like the fighter has to become better archers, sword and boarders, polearmers and so on.