Their hardness and HP only going up with their enhancement bonus. If you just have a +1 holy vorpal longsword, it only gets +2 hardness and +10 HP and not +16/+80.
As to who could actually damage such an item? My level 11 barb that I just built does 2d6+28 dmg all by his lonesome let alone any combat buffs. Even with a 20 hardness, 60 hp (max at +5/adamantine), I can break your item with a single full attack, assuming all hit. 1 more attack and its destroyed unless I roll lucky on my previous full attack. Now, advance me to 20th level.
Level 11, WBL 82k, weapon portion comes to 20,500 there abouts. That's a +3 weapon. You can get GT at level 13. Not a huge wait. Even at level 11, a 7th spell level scrolls is very UMD-able if you're trying to plan ahead.It's a short trip to anyone with greater teleport.Chances are at the level you have at highest a +3 weapon, your party won't have Greater Teleport.
I love how the reason that sundering is okay is because you can wait two levels to get your stuff repaired. Lovely.
Try again kiddo.
Level 11, WBL 82k, weapon portion comes to 20,500 there abouts. That's a +3 weapon. You can get GT at level 13. Not a huge wait. Even at level 11, a 7th spell level scrolls is very UMD-able if you're trying to plan ahead.It's a short trip to anyone with greater teleport.Chances are at the level you have at highest a +3 weapon, your party won't have Greater Teleport.I love how the reason that sundering is okay is because you can wait two levels to get your stuff repaired. Lovely.
Try again kiddo.
Try playing the game. You use consumables? You replace them. Your gear gets damaged? You get it fixed. Have you never rolled a 1 on a save versus an effect that does damage? Hard to say the precedent of damaging your precious items is any kind of new or rare.
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I let players sunder if the wish... most avoid it because it isn't practical... and will only sunder as the DM against consumable objects such a potions, wands and the like, common objects or in very, very rare cases where a BBEG has martial levels and it fits his story.
I hate taking permanent objects away from the players in 3.x/Pathfinder because so much is balanced around your magic item ability as you progress. Generally sunder is left on the back burner in favor of disarms or the like.
It depends on the NPC and the target. But, I use sunder, yes. It is an incredibly viable tactic against either high damaging melee targets, or heavy armor shielded high AC types.
It can be much easier to sunder than hit a high AC target. If you give the fighter in full plate the broken condition to his armor, he just lost a lot of AC.
And if the big guy with the great axe has been cleaving through your minions a bit too well, a good sunder on that axe will put him in his place.
I honestly think sundering should be used semi-frequently. Since armor/weapons/shields etc don't wear down over time (like they realistically should) despite having been beat on, crushed, stabbed through, and generally thrashed against for untold numbers of combats. Throwing into the mix semi-regular sunder attempts helps capture the feel that battle, and fighting in general, eventually breaks your stuff.
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I'm possibly a little more 'hard-ball' on this topic (and my players know to bring a back up weapon) than most.
If it is a viable tactic for the pcs then it is for appropriate npcs. That said if you have a particular tactic e.g. being a duellist or disarm, etc. Then you will be come known for that tactic and people who oppose you will prepare accordingly. They will view sundering as an excellent way to expose a 'one trick pony' pc or to negate a spell-user.
As regards wealth by level I don't play it and I generally run low magic homebrew games but it should be pointed out that it is A GUIDELINE NOT AN ENTITLEMENT. In my view it creates an overly materialistic approach to characters and their 'equipment' (see my earlier comment about one trick pony's).
Now in terms of play experience, my players enjoy a challenge and are mature enough to handle the occasional disappointment, such as facing a sunderer, but I accept that is not every game and group.
I am a pretty hard nosed DM in a lot of ways, however, breaking player gear with an awkward mechanic (sunder) is unfairly slanted against martial characters who are also more dependent on said gear. As for the WBL, it is a guideline, but it is also factored in to the challenge rating and EPL, and in terms of a martial character's weapons or armor it become orders of magnitude more significant as the characters progress.
So the first thing I thought was that imma gonna smash the shit outta the witch's headband of intellect. I feel silly for not thinking of it sooner. -3 to slumber DC seems like a good counter.
Is it just me, or is there a subtle pressure on the DM to never have the enemy try to sunder a PC weapon?
It's not just you. There's a lot of players and GMs out there who seem to think it's in bad form. I am not one of those people. Equipment and wealth is a river. If you lose it now, more will come if you keep going. I'd rather lose my cool sword than my cool character.
That said, the humor is sometimes the item may be worth more than you from a strictly monetary standpoint. It costs less than 10,000 gp to get a character raised and then hit with a restoration spell to remove the negative levels. A +3 weapon can't even be purchased in a metropolis reliably.
Perhaps this is where the heart ache comes in. Though every +1 to an item also adds +2 hardness and +10 Hp, so it's actually pretty hard to break a sufficiently powerful weapon or armor. I mean, a +5 weapon has +10 hardness and an extra 50 HP. If the weapon is normally made of iron you can't even milk adamantine to make that easier to break (it has a hardness of 20+). And it's not picky about where the enhancement bonus comes from. Casting greater magic weapon on a weapon gives it between +2 to +10 hardness and lots of extra hit points for the duration.
There's obvious reasons why the players would rather have monsters try to hit THEM than hit their weapons, so I won't go into that now. But I do get the feeling that players sort of operate on the assumption that the enemy will never try to sunder their weapons (or break their equipment). Maybe it's just IMC.
I even get a sort of vibe that having the monsters try to sunder weapons would be the equivalent of the DM "going nuclear", as described years ago by a WotC employee discussing overpowered spells like Time Stop and Gate. The idea was that these spells were "balanced" because players typically didn't abuse them for fear that the DM would start using them on the players, and vice-versa.
Funny. Looks like the cold war doesn't exist in my games. Spells like time stop and gate are staples of my high level NPCs. I expect you to be able to put on your big boy/girl pants at that level and overcome. The CR 16 wizard isn't the equivalent XP to 3 glabrezu demons for nothing.
Except in the case of sundering weapons, the PCs don't have the option to retaliate in kind. I mean, sure, they COULD start sundering the weapons of the enemy, but that would mean destroying some of the loot they get from defeating them. And what does the DM care? The next batch of villains will have brand new weapons.
Any thoughts or comments on this dynamic?
The weapons and armors of NPCs are generally not worth very much. NPC gear is sold at half price anyway, and doesn't allow enough for particularly valuable (relative to level) gear. You're destroying only a small fraction of the NPC's overall gear in most cases. Especially if they are reasonably equipped (IE - spent money on both melee and ranged weapons). Destroying a few shouldn't be a big deal.
Some exceptions exist, but particularly strong weaponry isn't likely to break quickly. Reducing an item to 1/2 HP gives it the broken condition which is good enough to severely debilitate the damage output it can muster (it causes a -2 to hit and damage, and has only a 20/x2 critical). Since valuable items such as magical equipment tends to have a lot of Hp and/or hardness, you probably won't break your good beyond repair by accident.
The GM can always include more treasure to make up for deficits that are occurring due to sundering. For example, if your breaking stuff is causing you to fall behind in WBL, then the GM can drop a few more sacks of gold in the treasure horde and no one is the wiser. Likewise, if the GM shatters your adamantine full plate (those damn wizard :P), he can adjust treasures accordingly so you won't be missing it very long.
So, Buri, where do you find the 24th level caster to fix your +4 sword?
Or 30th for +5?
This isn't Forgotten Realms, where it seems like everyone and their grandma has epic levels. There are no rules in PF for characters above 20th. Guidelines exist, at best.
Meh? Do you *want* a game where high level magic items can be repaired with a mere spell? Be smart with your play. Ask the right questions with knowledge checks. If you've got an item you *really* want back, a wish could do it. Even with a 25k diamond down the drain that's a lot cheaper than rebuilding those items.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result.
Assuming:
-You have a caster who can cast Wish already (and you can get a +4 weapon LONG before that happens).
-He knows Wish/has it prepared.
-Has already bought that 25k diamond.
-Your enemy fails the re-roll.
Sure, the most powerful spell in the game MIGHT be able to help you with that feature.
Don't high level magic items also have a hella high Break DC and magically-improved hardness? Forget the 24th-level caster, where do you find the guy who can actually BREAK a +4 sword? Never mind the fact that by 6th or 7th level, everyone's using mithril or adamantine weapons just to get around DR anyway. If your Infinity+1 Sword of Awesomeness gets broken, you don't worry about getting it fixed because you're not surviving the encounter with the guy who broke it.
+4 greatsword has 18 Hardness.
Adamantine ignores that.
It also has 40 extra HP, so 50 total.
By the time you have a +4 sword (maybe 12th, 13th at the later end), a few enemies can do that with one attack on a good roll. Most can do it in two.
You can FULL ATTACK with Sunder.
The problem with Sunder is that it is an attack that will almost always succeed. Your weapons are weaker than you are. The enemy can smash them at a whim, and your CMD is likely a lot lower than your AC.
Assuming:
-You have a caster who can cast Wish already (and you can get a +4 weapon LONG before that happens).
-He knows Wish/has it prepared.
-Has already bought that 25k diamond.
-Your enemy fails the re-roll.
Sure, the most powerful spell in the game MIGHT be able to help you with that feature.
Again, meh. If you're prepared to anticipate item damage then you'll be rewarded by the system. If you're not, and it happens, like any other scenario in the game, you'll be drawing the short straw and bad things happen.
Also, again, a 25k wish is cheaper and quicker than rebuilding a 26k+ item. (Read: most player gear equipped at those levels)
Did I miss something or wasn't it easier with Pathfinder to repair (even magic) broken weapons?
I pointed out make whole then got hit with the "what about x" train never minding the fact the spell works to do just that.
Did I miss something or wasn't it easier with Pathfinder to repair (even magic) broken weapons?
You did miss something.
The part like 5 posts up (and 5 posts before that, and 5 before that, and 5 before that...) where it simply does not work on weapons +4 or higher (because 24th level characters do not exist in Golarion), and requires a trip to a specific city in the world to find a caster high enough level to fix a +3 weapon.
Did I miss something or wasn't it easier with Pathfinder to repair (even magic) broken weapons?
You did miss something.
The part like 5 posts up (and 5 posts before that, and 5 before that, and 5 before that...) where it simply does not work on weapons +4 or higher (because 24th level characters do not exist in Golarion), and requires a trip to a specific city in the world to find a caster high enough level to fix a +3 weapon.
Not sure about golarion specifically, but core caster levels can get up to 25th or so. Prayer beads + ioun stone = CL 25th. Outside of core you can probably find better than that.
But then it's generally more efficient to just stick to +2 weapons anyway.
Remember, NPCs are not optimized as PCs are, and have less WBL.
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I tend to find it is casters who get sundered more, their gear is much 'squishier' and sundering tends to have a quite specific purpose with a caster.
As for Wealth by Level, I've been DM'ing for 32 years and by and large can gauge an encounter pretty well as well as factor in environmental factors and the such, most DM's who successfully run low magic games will view the challenge rating of an encounter on a case by case basis. The whole treasure/challenge/experience reward system can be factored down quite easily.
First, unless they are doing something wrong, casters are generally not the ones in melee combat, so while their items may be "squishier" they shouldn't be the ones getting hit as much. Also, in most cases breaking something a Wizard is holding is of far lesser impact than breaking something a Fighter is holding. That is my point about a skewed system of effect.
In my 31 years of playing a lot of rules have changed and Sunder is something that came along with the 3.x iterations, it had no bearing earlier on. Also, in previous editions there was not the heavy reliance on magic items in such a codified manner as there is in the current game system. Obviously running a low magic campaign alters the dynamic of gear, if equipment is more common in quality, it is easier to replace from a mechanical standpoint and you game will be balanced around that from the outset, but not everyone runs a low magic game. In a standard high fantasy game in the current system setting, however, the character's access to and employment of a certain amount of magical equipment is an important factor, especially at higher levels.
A successful DM understands the setting and works to maintain a balance of play so as not to employ a mechanic that serves to continually place certain character types at a greater disadvantage on a regular basis.
Unless of course the characters in one's game are the walking hardware stores carrying golf bags full of weapons for every eventuality... in that case sundering is not a real hindrance.
As for Wealth by Level, I've been DM'ing for 32 years and by and large can gauge an encounter pretty well as well as factor in environmental factors and the such, most DM's who successfully run low magic games will view the challenge rating of an encounter on a case by case basis. The whole treasure/challenge/experience reward system can be factored down quite easily.
Agree 100%. The game has changed so much. There are players that don't like homebrew campaigns - thinking only published paizo materials are "real" campaigns. They're enjoyment is more tied to overcoming set guideline-based challenges using their skills of building a character and then game knowledge.
I haven't been DMing for as long as you, but I also find it easy to monitor character wealth/power. One of the main advantages I have going for me is that my players have been playing since Basic D&D (except 1, who we're teaching.) They don't expect to get specific items, or be able to purchase exactly what they want. They don't expect that if their weapon gets destroyed, the GM will put one wrapped in a red ribbon in the next chest for them.
Its a very different gaming style now - it can be difficult to wrap your head around if you're more used to the older style of play.
One scenario I can see a DM having a monster try to sunder something...
Party bowman is optimized for killing giants. He also has a high AC vs giants.
Party has been making forays into frost giant territory for a few days, killing a number of them but failing to kill ALL of them. Some have gotten away and reported on a couple of very dangerous party members like the bowman who can drop a giant in a couple of shots.
A couple of giants close to melee range with the bowman. They try to hit him but his AC is really high and they keep missing.
"Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!" laughs the bowman as he nimbly dodges their axes, then shoots them dead because he has the feats to prevent them getting in their AoOs.
Now, what might the next wave of frost giants, who witnessed this, think to do to the bowman when they get in close? They aren't stupid, and they have the Improved Sunder feat. And a typical longbow has a hardness of 5 and 5 hit points.
But then it's generally more efficient to just stick to +2 weapons anyway.
Very much agreed. Even in a high level campaign most players will prefer +3 as the maximum bonus on their weapons, in order to make way for "equivalents" like Flaming and Bane.
I love it. My only experience with Eberron was DDo but warfogred always ran like hell when a rust monster showed up. :)One campaign I was in; I was playing a Half-Orc Monk and our cleric was a Warforged. Coming across rust monsters meant having to run interference for the cleric...GMs really try and sunder? I'm way too busy just trying to kill the PCs as is dont think my baddies would have time to live long enough to take advantage. I guess taking weapons and equipment out of the equation may help me achieve my goal. I guess I should reconsider my tactics.
Rust monsters are lots of fun. Usually only comes up once or twice if at all a campaign. Hardly worth worring about.
Pfft my Warforged Barbarian LIVED to hunt rust monsters(and beholders). Course his ridiculous Fort save and muckbane definatly helped...
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The caster level requirement on make whole seems to only matter if the weapon is destroyed, i.e. has 0hp left. As long as it has even 1hp left it can be repaired by any level of caster.
If you're really worried about your sword breaking, there are magic items and weapon enhancements you can get that will boost your weapon's hardness and hp (fortifying stone is 1,000g for +5hardness +20hp. impervious is 3,000g for +twice the enhancement vs sunder).
High level fighter types' CMD tends to actually be higher than their AC (bab+str can easily pass armor+natural armor bonus).
In pathfinder, monsters like the gray ooze got scaled way back, to the point where they can't actually damage weapons like they're supposed to with their meager 1d6 damage. Kinda kills the scare factor of those beasties.
If you do end up running in to npcs that can destroy your weapons, then smart players will change their tactics. Guy with an adamantine greatsword? he can't use it in a grapple. Rust monster? back off, fight defensively, let the wizard blast it, etc.
Sure, it is possible to be stupid, get unlucky and loose an expensive item. It's also possible to get killed, permanent ability damage, level drained, turned into a wraith, etc. Sundering isn't really the worst that's out there. If I actually lost a 128k gp item to sundering, then I did something really stupid and hopefully learned a valuable lesson from it.
After saying all that, there is a category of people who do have to worry about sundering, and that is dex based characters. Ranged weapons and light weapons like rapiers have low hardness and hp. Compared to the str based character, these builds often have high AC and lower CMD.