Other than the obvious inability to stack almost completely on dexterity while ignoring strength, what other downsides are there to ignoring weapon finesse? Are there any upsides besides the have the extra feat handy?
I was looking at the TWF fighter and realized it wasn't necessary to dex with TWF. The two had been classically linked in my head so I got to thinking about a rogue build. Obviously, "it's not a fighter" so it won't have the class features and plethora of feats available. It's just theorycraft on my party.
Any ideas?
Other than the obvious inability to stack almost completely on dexterity while ignoring strength, what other downsides are there to ignoring weapon finesse? Are there any upsides besides the have the extra feat handy?
I was looking at the TWF fighter and realized it wasn't necessary to dex with TWF. The two had been classically linked in my head so I got to thinking about a rogue build. Obviously, "it's not a fighter" so it won't have the class features and plethora of feats available. It's just theorycraft on my party.
Any ideas?
How do you TWF with low dex?? Last I checked, TWF chain REQUIRES a Decent dex...
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well there is the obvious dip into ranger for 2 levels to pick up two weapon fighting without the prereq for dex and just focus on strength from there. As long as you keep it to two light weapons or one handed weapon and one light, you should be fine.
There are many feats in the TWF style but frankly with 10 feats on 20 levels...you have to choose carefully.
I built out a stat array for a level 11 character I'm building. As an elf with a +4 str belt and 25 point-buy I've got:
STR 18
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 09
This takes you as far up the TWF chain as you can going straight rogue. By time your BAB is 11 you'd have plenty of time to get one more boost to dex to finish off with Greater TWF.
I'm not saying ignore dexterity. It's relatively cheap to get a score up to around 18 though instead of spending gobs more to get a single score into the 20s and higher.
If you want to go TWF then only get dex high enough to complete the chain, and focus on strength for your to hit bonus and damage.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is IMO not worth it (that 3rd off-hand attack at -10 is pretty weak), so a 17-18 Dex is probably all you need (or 15-16 Dex with six levels in ranger to pick up Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; you still probably want Double Slice). You're better off with adding extra attacks through Bashing Finish (weapon/shield bash route), Break Guard (if also taking disarm/maneuver feats), Cleaving Finish, and/or the Crane, Panther, and/or Snake style feats (if mixing weapon and unarmed attacks).
Generally, two-weapon fighting characters either want a lot of extra damage (Sneak Attack) or focus on critical hits (twin kukris or wakizashis, scimitar or falcata/shield bash w/light shield, etc.). Since precision damage (Sneak Attack) isn't multiplied on a critical hit, crit-fishing rogues are only marginally better for the feat or item investment, although they can be effective in some cases (for instance, a high-level rogue/ranger with a keen scimitar, a bashing light (darkwood or mithral) quickdraw shield, and the Bashing Finish feat for the extra attacks).
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The advantages a Finesseless Rogue has that I can think of are
- Extra Feat
- Extra Damage
- Game is Built around Strength for Damage
- Power Attack (probably for Mooks mainly)
- Furious Focus (For scouts)
- Higher enhancement bonus due to not needing agile
The advantages of a Finesse Rogue that I can think of are
- Better Disable Device/Acrobatics/Stealth
- Less MAD (don't need strength once you can get Dervish Dance/agile weapon)
- Better AC (Yeah yeah, max dex issues, but Darkleaf Cloth Studded Leather has a +8 Max Dex bonus, as does Celestial Armor. If you exceed that, darkleaf leather for +9, and beyond that there is haramaki)
- Easier to require TWF feats (Yes, you can do this with strength, but its easier to get them if you only have to focus dex)
I still play more of the latter and less of the former.
One possible route (rogue/ranger going weapon/shield bash):
Half-Orc (Toothy for the bite)
16 Str (+2 race), 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha
Rogue 1- Two-Weapon Fighting
Rogue 2- Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
Ranger 1- Improved Shield Bash
Ranger 2- +1 Str; Combat Style (Double Slice)
Rogue 3- Quick Draw
Ranger 3- Endurance (bonus)
Ranger 4- Shield Slam
Ranger 5- +1 Str
Ranger 6- Combat Style (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
Rogue 4- Rogue Talent (Bleeding Attack)
Rogue 5- Improved Critical (Scimitar)
Rogue 6- +1 Str; Rogue Talent (Weapon Training (Weapon Focus (Scimitar)))
Rogue 7- Shield Master
Rogue 8- Rogue Talent (Combat Trick (Bashing Finish))
...
Alternately, you could go with an orc double-axe instead of weapon shield/bash, replacing Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Improved Critical, Shield Master, and Bashing Finish with Power Attack, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Great Cleave, and Improved Cleaving Finish.
Two Weapon Fighting requires Dex 15
Improved TWF requires Dex 17
Greater TWF requires Dex 19You need some Dexterity if you are going to go the TWF route unless you can get the feats as class bonus feats (Ranger) without having the prereqs.
On a 20 point buy, for a purely martial character- STR 16, DEX 16, CON 14, mental stats- 10. The two 16's are accomplished by having one of them be a 14, and having your racial adjustment raise it to 16 (so most races would work, since almost all of them add to at least strength or dex)Add your 4th level ability score adjustment to DEX to bring it to 17. You now have enough dex to get all the TWF feats that a 3/4 BAB class really needs. The rest are either too meh, or rely on an iterative that hits at BAB-10...which would never hit reliably enough to bother.
You need 'some' dex, but not enough that you necessarily need to abandon strength in favor of weapon finesse. 16 strength is more than decent, and it is generally the score I aim for when I have to divide scores up (like with melee casters, such as clerics, druids, inquisitors, magus, or bards).