Does flurry of manuevers require a melee weapon?

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Ok, so one of my players for an upcoming group is wanting to go with a cheesy build... We both figure that if you have the grab ability you can maintain that essentially as a free action (such that a monster with 10 tentacles with grab can grapple ten characters simultaneously). Since that's not PFS ruling, and we agreed to stick with PFS rules for the group, he's been looking at this alternative option:

Manuever Master Monk 1
White Haired Witch 1
Cleric (Crusader) 1
Worshipping Erastil and using the Longbow

He plans on getting the Crusader's Flurry feat, which makes your deities favored weapon a monk weapon, thus allowing it to be used with flurry of blows and such. The question I have is would this work with flurry of manuevers?

I can see it working with regular flurry of blows easily... but when you change it's name (Do monk weapons still work with flurry of manuevers?) and then mix melee and ranged attack rolls into the same bundle (Grapple checks and ranged shooting checks) things get confusing. Would this be PFS legal?

[MacGurcules]

First, maintaining a grapple for creatures with Grab is no different from any other creature (a standard action, barring any other abilities).

Second, Flurry of Maneuvers isn't Flurry of Blows. It has no limitations on method or means of attack. There's nothing saying you can't take your bonus maneuvers alongside your full compliment of attacks regardless of weapon or range. There's no need for Crusader's Flurry or a monk weapon.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Really?

I always thought that any ability that replaced flurry of blows assumed the weapon list was the same, and that the name of the flurry was changed just for fluff.

As for maintaining a grapple, yes we understand it's normally a standard action, that normal rules and what we go by, but for a creature with grab we feel thats not how the ability should be working. Hence the octopus is only able to grapple at max 2 opponets.

I can see where your coming from though. I am kinda curious on how other people would rule on this though. Anyone else care to chirp in with an opinion or two?

[Kazaan]

Nope. Abilities that archetypes replace bear no relation to the new ability unless the mechanics are exactly the same. For example, the Polearm Master Fighter archetype replaces Weapon Training with Polearm Training, which is Weapon Training for Polearms only. In that case, it counts as to satisfy prerequisites (ie. the additional bonus granted by Gloves of Dueling). Flurry of Maneuvers has distinctly different mechanics from Flurry of Blows, thus they are two entirely segregated abilities; thus it is inappropriate to presume that restrictions that apply to FoB also apply to FoM, even though they aren't stated.

[Mojorat]

A few things, although i really dont get what the origonal intent was to be honest.

As mentioned already, by taking maneuver master he has traded out flurry of blows and no longer qualifies for it. The good news however, is that is not needed as Flurry of Maneuvers has no weapon requirements beyond the maneuver being used.

The bit witht he grab ability that you are thinking of is that a creature with grab can choose to take -20 on its grapple check in order to not give itself the grappled condition. This will basically let it continue to grab as a free action. The problem is it isnt practical on something that isnt big with 10 tentacles.

lastly, the white haired witch hair stuff is neat and.. horribly in need or errata. But the above character would for example have to do the attempts to grab using his int modifer.

So at the end of the day you have a character that by lvl 3 has a Bab of 0, and is extremely MAD thus un-able to remotely do any of what it is supposed to do.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

True, the classes presented are a foundation that is to be. The current mindset of the player is 1 manuever master monk, 1 WHW, X rogue, the ideas are more for concept than for combat effectiveness.

I'm unaware of a connection between not having the grappled condition and maintaining a grapple as a free action? I thought that the grab ability was almost utterly useless RAW (-20 to not be grappled, but still have to spend a standard action to maintain). It'd be way nice to see that maintaining the grapple was a free action though.

[Mojorat]

Its late and i ccannot remember the specific tule. However i beieve if a creature with tge grab ability takes a -20 to grapple doesnt have the grappled condition and does not need to spend a standard action to maintain. However this is basically a rule for monsters as i cannot see a pc getting their cmb high enough to be viable.

As far as the character idea goes.. if you are playing pfs where you cannot house rue to fix tge white haired witch do not play one. If you are going to do a grapple build do nt gimp yur sekf by being both mad and crippling your bab and thus cmb.

Rread how grappling with the white haired witch works then read it again.

[CrazyGnomes]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

True, the classes presented are a foundation that is to be. The current mindset of the player is 1 manuever master monk, 1 WHW, X rogue, the ideas are more for concept than for combat effectiveness.

I'm unaware of a connection between not having the grappled condition and maintaining a grapple as a free action? I thought that the grab ability was almost utterly useless RAW (-20 to not be grappled, but still have to spend a standard action to maintain). It'd be way nice to see that maintaining the grapple was a free action though.

The benefit to grab is that you can do damage with an attack and then essentially get a free grapple attempt as well, rather than choosing between damage and grapple. It also give you a +4 bonus to starting and maintaining grapples and allows you to do so without provoking AoOs, which is comparable to the Improved Grapple feat. And as others mentioned, you have the option of avoiding the grappled condition by taking the penalty to CMB.

Adding the ability to maintain a grapple as a free action (the Greater Grapple feat only allows you to do so as a move action) seems fairly overpowered.

[James Risner]

Flurry of Maneuvers is not Flurry of Blows and anything that restricts or otherwise changes.

Zen Archer has a line "even though it is a ranged weapon" suggesting that Flurry can't use ranged weapons.

The actual writeup of Flurry doesn't restrict to melee.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I guess it's restricted to melee by the fact that all monk weapons are melee :P.

But thanks for the input guys! I'll tell him he can do it.

[Archaeik]

Unwritten rules that crop up peripherally in descriptions of other abilities don't work for me.

Shuriken is a monk weapon and suitable for flurry.
If they intended for Zen Archer's to be an exception, they need to issue errata.

I see zero restrictions on what deities are eligible for Crusader's Flurry.

As a note, Sohei can FoB with a bow too (in fact, the whole weapon group).