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One of my characters is looking into getting an Improved Familiar that has some nice SLAs. They have set CL in the stat block for the familiar.
The rules for familiars say 'Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.'
As you level up, would your improved familiar's changing HD affect the caster level of their SLAs? Or do they stay the same over time?
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Yes it would. The two are linked unless otherwise stated. For example, several outsiders have a bit of "casts like a 12th level cleric" or somesuch. That would not change based on its HD. Creatures that don't have that would.
Wasn't there a dev stating recently that the SLAs do not increase with a Familiar's master's level? I'm not sure in which thread though.
But familiar caster level increases with master level still? Sweet.
Wasn't there a dev stating recently that the SLAs do not increase with a Familiar's master's level? I'm not sure in which thread though.
Stated caster levels are one thing. Just the group heading like
Spell Like Abilities (CL 5)
should be different. Every other place that grants an SPA use total level or HD as the caster level.
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
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Wasn't there a dev stating recently that the SLAs do not increase with a Familiar's master's level? I'm not sure in which thread though.Stated caster levels are one thing. Just the group heading like
Spell Like Abilities (CL 5)should be different. Every other place that grants an SPA use total level or HD as the caster level.
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
And since a Familiar never gains new HD (the line you quoted is for effects ONTO the familiar not effects coming from the familiar) the CL of those abilities never changes.
edit: Also look at what you just posted, there IS a caster level specified that has nothing to do with the imps HD. (CL 6 for all imp abilities)To the OP, no, the familiars abilities never gets stronger.
Caster level is an effect related to Hit Dice.
It is because it's a function of HD.
Paizo broke their own rules when doing that entry, then. It's a special case. The RAW is obviously different.
Spell Like Abilities (CL 5)should be different. Every other place that grants an SPA use total level or HD as the caster level.
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice...
So in statblocks like the one you quote, they ARE giving a caster level, so the "if no caster level is specified" rule should never be invoked.
(the line you quoted is for effects ONTO the familiar not effects coming from the familiar)
Got a quote for that distinction? "effects coming from the familiar" are inherently "effects" (a subset of them), so we need explicit exclusion of them in order to not apply the benefit of Familiar to them.
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Spell Like Abilities (CL 5)should be different. Every other place that grants an SPA use total level or HD as the caster level.
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice...So in statblocks like the one you quote, they ARE giving a caster level, so the "if no caster level is specified" rule should never be invoked.
(the line you quoted is for effects ONTO the familiar not effects coming from the familiar)Got a quote for that distinction? "effects coming from the familiar" are inherently "effects" (a subset of them), so we need explicit exclusion of them in order to not apply the benefit of Familiar to them.
Look at the whole quote not just a part of it.
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.
It is only effects that are related to # of Hit Die where this comes into play, none of the spell like abilities any familiar has (except 1 of the improved ones which has been stated it will be errated) is related to their HD. Those are all set by caster level which is explicitly set in the Bestiary entry.
The only effects that are variable based on HD or spell effects that target the familiar (sleep, finger of death, color spray, etc.) THOSE specify variable effects by HD and in those cases this entry comes into effect.
Normally familiars abilities are set when you get them and do not improve. Ever.
That's some moldy bologna.
Buri/OP - it would be nice if SLA's did scale with master caster level, but they do not. The Universal Monster Rule is only a backup, in case they forget to mention a caster level.
Mathwei - caster level is not an effect related to Hit Dice (unless specified as such), but other things can be. For example, the DC of the poison of a viper familiar is based on Hit Dice, and goes up with master level (1/2 level). It doesn't become a more toxic/damaging poison though, just higher DC.
Wasn't there some familiar (that cat thing) that has LoH but paizo ruled that its LoH didn't scale? I'm not sure if that was specific to that familiar or not, but it sets a precedent that familiar abilities don't scale. Unfortunately.
The Silvanshee has LoH always as a 2nd level Paladin. But that's a specific exception though, so it doesn't say much about the general rule.
Spell Like Abilities (CL 5)should be different. Every other place that grants an SPA use total level or HD as the caster level.
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice...So in statblocks like the one you quote, they ARE giving a caster level, so the "if no caster level is specified" rule should never be invoked.
(the line you quoted is for effects ONTO the familiar not effects coming from the familiar)Got a quote for that distinction? "effects coming from the familiar" are inherently "effects" (a subset of them), so we need explicit exclusion of them in order to not apply the benefit of Familiar to them.Look at the whole quote not just a part of it.
For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.It is only effects that are related to # of Hit Die where this comes into play, none of the spell like abilities any familiar has (except 1 of the improved ones which has been stated it will be errated) is related to their HD. Those are all set by caster level which is explicitly set in the Bestiary entry.
Right, the first part of my quote is directly addressing why pretty much all SLAs are not subject to HD scaling because they ARE specifying a Caster Level, thus the HD-linked rule is never invoked. I asked you for a quote to back up your other assertion (re: effects "ONTO vs FROM"), which is un-needed to resolve the SLA issue (for above reason), but which is applicable to other abilities... as reflected by Majuba's post above.
The more I think about the "never improving" thing the more I think it's wrong. Why? Because the Improved Familiar feat says they do. This means their intelligence score changes, armor changes, etc. They gain abilities as normal familiars as well. Skill modifiers will change, some ability DCs perhaps, etc too. They merely do not change type.
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).
The only viable rationale I know of for SLA Caster Level scaling (with Familiar HD effect) would be outside the general rules for SLA's. Dragons, for example, have a particular rule applicable to all Dragons that states:
Spell-Like Abilities: A dragon's caster level for its spell-like abilities is equal to its total Hit Dice.
That rule is in effect even if the general SLA rule "Use Hit Dice as CL only if CL is not mentioned" is not invoked.
Said Dragon SLA rule does not apply to things like Faery Dragon's actual Sorceror casting, which is SPECIFIED as 3rd level Sorceror casting, akin to Sylvanshee's Lay on Hands.