|
Just to point this out. Helping a friend and while I feel I have the vest knowledge on the paladin out of any class I like discussions as they help me think and sometimes give me ideas I would forget or not think of. So we rolled his stats (High power game) he got 18,17,16,15,14,12 before stat boosts. Starting at 9 as he is joining later. I suggested him do a lancer/sword and board twf. (Ahh the feats!) Or go twf snb. He wants to actually go sword and shield taproveded also get to use his Pegasus (GM aproveded)through divine bond. If we take craft skills and feats we get half off any item in that category up to # of ranks in said skill. Any ideas and or thoughts to help us out?
Depends on a few things....
1) how does your GM sort out the mess that is mounted combat (specifically ride by attack, trample, charge through etc.)
2. How often is the campaign likely to allow mounted combat?
Frankly, mounted lancers are great when they have the room needed to work.... its why I like halfling cavaliers so intently... medium mounts can go pretty much anywhere that a medium character can.. and lets face it, most characters are medium.
It should also be noted that TWF is good... but not really until lvl 11, and far less so as anything but a fighter...
It is very feat intensive... but with those stats, it might be a good option at that point. Shield master, Imp shield bash, twf, imp twf, double slice, shield slam (prereq)... that is 6 feats without PA, and you still need G.TWF and TW-Rend....
you get feats at 1,3,5,7,9,11.... so you are pretty much stuck, and those feats do nothing for you if you have to move. At the very least, with mounted combat, you really just need Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Power Attack and Furious Focus.
But those last two are good on foot or on a mount... The best weapon on foot, then, can just be your lance.... you just drop the shield and swing away with a 2-hander with reach.
Its a great shining knight sort of build, and the real impact is taht smite damage also gets tripled on a spirited lance charge.... and that can be a ton of hurt.
The absolute most effective way to do a SnB character is to have him weild a weapon that can be used in one hand, but use it in two hands. The ideal weapon is a Sunblade- Greatsword that counts as a longsword. This weapon is wielded two handed at all times until the need for an extra boost in AC becomes necessary. Drawing the shield at that point allows for said needed boost in AC.
Ideal array:
STR 18
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 17
Add in race wherever you want, most likely going to go into STR or CHA, personally I would go with CHA, stat bumps go into CHA then DEX then the rest into either STR or CHA after that. My recommendation is human for added versatility and awesomeness, but a regular old aasimar can do just as well for reasons that can be explained in a minute.
Feat selection should include:
Power Attack (by level 3)
Furious Focus (at some point after lvl 7)
Unsanctioned Knowledge (at level 5 or 7)
Fey Foundling is a favorite of people's on these forums, I like Fast Learner as well.
If you want to prioritize getting you dat sunblade, the aasimar has the prereq spell as his SLA (Daylight), so taking Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 9th level (or earlier depending on your DM's interpretation of caster level when it comes to SLA's, or if you take the Magical Knack trait) gives you guaranteed access to it.
The main thing about the sunblade is the increased damage die, but if you do plan on sticking with the TWF version with a shield, you cannot possibly beat a bastard sword sized sunblade in your main hand and your regular sized (most likely Bashing Enchanted) shield in your off hand, as it allows you optimal damage output while still taking the regular TWF penalties (-2/-2)
If you plan on aerial combat at all, I cannot endorse enough the feat Death From Above, as it gives you an extra +3 on aerial charges, combined with furious focus you get your Power Attack damage at full BAB +5 from this feat, meaning you can basically guarantee any hit with this guy.
Unsanctioned Knowledge is a true gem, spells that are great to look at are expeditious retreat, wrath, bear's endurance, alter self, bladed dash (my personal favorite), blur, haste, displacement, and divine power. Access to these spells can give you an extra edge and save your arcane caster a turn Hasting errybody, or add some awesome defense that negates sneak attack and precision damage.
Next thing to look at are Oath's and archetypes.
Oath of Vengeance is the one everyone is going to want to sell you on because no one cares about channeling energy, and they all want you to be able to have ALL OF THE SMITES!!! Reality is, it is overrated, as you will be able to deal enough damage as is to kill most things without smiting them and you usually will have enough smites as is, but to each his own.
I do however like combining this oath with the Sacred Servant archetype, which cuts down on the number of smites you have (mitigated by Oath of Vengeance) but it allows access to a Domain associated with your deity. Hello Abadar/Apsu, so you can get your hands on some Travel Domain, which gives you access to some awesome spells like Longstrider, and Fly, in addition to it's awesome domain abilities like that +10 move speed that stacks with everything and the ability to avoid difficult terrain a number of times based on your WIS mod, which actually won't suck with this build.
My personal favorite Oath is Against the Wyrm, which gives you some cool powers, but isn't really that good unless you are in a dragon heavy campaign, with the exception of the spell list which includes all gems like Bear's Endurance, Fly, and Stoneskin.
In any case, this build could be the best paladin ever.
Just to point this out. Helping a friend and while I feel I have the vest knowledge on the paladin out of any class I like discussions as they help me think and sometimes give me ideas I would forget or not think of. So we rolled his stats (High power game) he got 18,17,16,15,14,12 before stat boosts. Starting at 9 as he is joining later. I suggested him do a lancer/sword and board twf. (Ahh the feats!) Or go twf snb. He wants to actually go sword and shield taproveded also get to use his Pegasus (GM aproveded)through divine bond. If we take craft skills and feats we get half off any item in that category up to # of ranks in said skill. Any ideas and or thoughts to help us out?
Rorek55,
Knowing that your friend wants to ride a pegasus, and knowing that your friend wants to go for an aegis paladin (weapon and shield), my best advice to you would be to ask your friend to choose which works best for him. He can either get some fantastic feats as a lancer paladin (rider), or try to go for the aegis paladin role (which I do not recommend), but doing both will mean that he'll do neither particularly well. Looking at your subsequent posts, it looks like you're trying to recommend the flurry paladin (two weapon) style as well. Paladins are not fighters with 9 feats at level 9 - they're only going to have 4 to 5 (depending on whether you're human or not), so trying to go for all three roles is pulling the character in too many directions.
My best advice is to go lancer; you'll have mobility, decent attacks, and you'll make yourself a juicy enough target that the DM will want to throw things at you. I only ever recommend aegis if you're going solo. I have constructed a sample build as an example of what you might be able to accomplish by level 9.
Human Paladin 9
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +10
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 108 (9d10+36)
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +12; +2 vs. death
Immune charm, disease, fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork lance +11/+6 (1d8+15/×3)
Special Attacks Channel Energy 5d6, smite evil
Spell-Like Abilities
. . At will—detect evil
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 6th; concentration +11):
2nd (2/day)—saddle surge, vestment of the champion
1st (4/day)—protection from evil, divine favor, cure light wounds, grace
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 20
Base Atk +9; CMB +10; CMD 26
Feats Death from Above, Fast Learner, Fey Foundling, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack
Traits reactionary, rider of paresh
Skills Diplomacy +17, Handle Animal +17, Perception +10, Ride +15, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +14
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve, divine bonds (animal companion, pegasus [charger]), lay on hands, mercies (mercy [fatigued], mercy [sickened], mercy [staggered]), summon mount
Other Gear Masterwork Studded leather armor, Masterwork Lance, 150 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to Fear. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs Fear.
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to charm. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs charm.
Death from Above Gain +5 bonus on attack rolls when charging from higher ground or flying
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (4d6) (9/day) (Su) You can heal 4d6 damage, 9/day
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy (Sickened) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the sickened condition.
Mercy (Staggered) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the staggered condition. This does not help if the target is at 0 HP.
Mounted Combat (1/round) Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (4/day) (DC 19) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ride-by Attack You can move - attack - move when charging mounted.
Rider of Paresh When mounted and charging mount's speed increases by 10 ft.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Smite Evil (3/day) (Su) +5 to hit, +9 to damage, +5 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Summon Mount (2/day) (2/day) (Sp) summon your mount to your side.
--------------------
Pegasus Mount CR 7
XP 3200
Pegasus
CG Large magical beast
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +11
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+3 Dex, -1 size, +3 natural)
hp 72 (4d10+24)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft., fly 120 ft. (average)
Melee bite +8 (1d3+10/×2) and
. . 2 hooves +3 (1d6+5/×2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities
. . Constant—detect evil (60-ft. radius), detect good (60-ft. radius)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 13
Base Atk +8; CMB +10 (+12 overrun); CMD 26 (28 vs. overrun, 30 vs. trip)
Feats Flyby Attack, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Power Attack
Skills Fly +6, Intimidate +12, Perception +11, Sense Motive +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Flight (120 feet, Average) You can fly!
Flyby Attack You can take a standard action during your move action while flying.
Improved Overrun You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when overrunning, and foe can't choose to avoid you.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Animal Companion
Horse (Charger)
N Large animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+3 Dex, -1 size, +10 natural)
hp 80 (+24)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +3 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Immune fatigue
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +7 (1d4+8/×2) and
. . 2 hooves +7 (1d6+8/×2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +9 (+13 overrun); CMD 24 (26 vs. overrun, 28 vs. trip)
Feats Charge Through, Greater Overrun, Improved Overrun, Multiattack, Power Attack
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Fly +12, Intimidate +10, Sense Motive +4
SQ barding training, indefatigable
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Barding Training 2 (Charger) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Charge Through You can make a free overrun as part of a charge.
Greater Overrun Foes you overrun provoke AoO if they are knocked prone.
Immunity to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Improved Overrun You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when overrunning, and foe can't choose to avoid you.
Indefatigable (Charger) (Ex) At 6th level, a charger becomes immune to fatigue. This ability replaces devotion.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Best wishes!
If he went the lancer style would the cavaleir class be more beneficial? (Still with the winged pony of)
Not really...
I like the cavalier class... and it would end up being a better offensive choice for most situations (though no double smite first attack on certain creatures is a loss, the cavalier is better on every other attack)
The paladin, however, has much better defenses, and lay on hands, and mercies, and spells, auras... sooo... paladin is pretty great as well.
You can have a lot of fun with either class... but paladins are more sturdy (divine grace is a huge deal).
If he went the lancer style would the cavaleir class be more beneficial? (Still with the winged pony of)
Lord_Malkov put it quite well. The cavalier class, with a similar construction methodology, works out as follows:
Human Cavalier (Beast Rider) 9
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +3
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 92 (9d10+36)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +8; +2 Morale bonus vs. fear when beneath banner
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork lance +12/+7 (1d8+16/×3)
Special Attacks cavalier's charge, challenge
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +9; CMB +11 (+15 overrun); CMD 28 (30 vs. overrun)
Feats Death from Above, Fast Learner, Greater Overrun, Improved Overrun, Mounted Combat, Pack Attack, Power Attack, Precise Strike, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Traits reactionary, rider of paresh
Skills Bluff +13, Climb +16, Diplomacy +13, Fly +12, Handle Animal +13, Intimidate +13, Ride +15, Sense Motive +15 (+19 when opposing a Bluff check); Racial Modifiers ride mount, sword's skills
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ banner, tactician, mounted mastery, orders (order of the sword)
Other Gear Masterwork Chain shirt, Masterwork Lance, 150 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+1 Ride while riding your bonded mount. (Ex) Cancel your armor check penalty of -1 while riding your mount.
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Banner +2/+1 (Ex) Allies who can see your banner gain +2 save vs. fear & +1 to hit while charging.
Cavalier's Charge (Ex) Mounted charge grants +4 to hit and -0 AC rather than +2/-2.
Death from Above Gain +5 bonus on attack rolls when charging from higher ground or flying
Greater Overrun Foes you overrun provoke AoO if they are knocked prone.
Greater Tactician (Pack Attack or Precise Strike) 7 rds (2/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your Tactical feats to your allies within 30'.
Improved Overrun You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when overrunning, and foe can't choose to avoid you.
Mounted Combat (1/round) Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Mounted Mastery (Ex) +4 AC against attacks set against your charge, add mount's STR mod to mounted charge damage.
Pack Attack Ally's attack allows you to take a 5-foot step
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Strike +1d6 precision damage for melee attacks if you and an ally with this feat flank the same target.
Ride-by Attack You can move - attack - move when charging mounted.
Rider of Paresh When mounted and charging mount's speed increases by 10 ft.
Spirited Charge Double damage when making a mounted charge (triple with a lance).
Sword's Challenge +9 (3/day) (Ex) +9 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, +3 to hit while riding your mount.
Sword's Skills +4 (Ex) +4 to Sense Motive opposing Bluff.
There are some clear differences here; no ability to heal is primary among the disadvantages when compared with a paladin of equivalent level. Your attack statistics are not significantly greater as a cavalier; you're at +1 to attack and damage over the paladin, but your saves are significantly lesser. Really, that offensive benefit is there because Strength is prioritised over Charisma for the Cavalier. You get more skill ranks as a Cavalier, so that's a plus for this class. On your challenge, you'll deal extra damage, but it's not greater than what you could do while smiting good as a Paladin.
It's really up to you, but I would strongly encourage you to go with the paladin.
Best wishes!
Anyway, here is how I would build it.
Human, level 9 paladin
Str: 22 (+2 belt, +2 race)
Dex: 16 (+1 at 8th)
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 20 (+2 headband, +1 at 4th)
Feats:
1. Mounted Combat
1. Ride by Attack
3. Spirited Charge
5. Power Attack
7. Furious Focus
9. Trick Riding
Gear (using WBL of 46,000gp, max item cost: 11,500)
+1 Mithral Full Plate (11500)
Large Steel Shield +2 (4020)
Lance +2 (8010)
Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4000)
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 (4000)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Amulet of natural Armor +1 (2000)
Mount's Gear:
Breast Plate Barding +1 (1200)
Horseshoes of Crushing Blows +1 (4000)
Mount Feats: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Imp. Overrun, Charge Through
All the abilities and such should be pretty easy to plug in...
Anyway...
DEFENSES:
HP: 93 (9d10+27(con)+9(FCB))
AC: 29 (10, +10 armor, +3 dex, +4 shield, +1 ring, +1 amulet)
SAVES:
Fort: +16 Ref: +13 Will: +15
OFFENSES:
Here is the big deal.. the charge attack.
Attack Bonus: +19 (+9 bab, +2 weapon, +6 str, +2 charging, -0 furious focus/power attack)
Note: Possibly +1 for higher ground if the target is medium or smaller.
Damage: 1d8+20 (lance 1d8, +9 str, +9 power attack, +2 weapon)
With spirited charge: 3d8+60
Remember, a lance still gets all the benefits of being a two-handed weapon when wielded in one hand on a mount... this is in contrast to things like jotungrip that treat the weapon as one-handed. Also, everything gets multiplied on a lance charge unlike vital strike... so furious focus and power attack are great add-ons.
Smite damage is also multiplied.. so you can make a smite charge that deals 3d8+87. If it is the first attack against an evil outsider, dragon etc. That becomes 3d8+114.
All pretty great stuff, and off of the mount, he can just use his lance as a reach two-hander at +17/+9 for 1d8+20. He just loses the shield.
If he went the lancer style would the cavaleir class be more beneficial? (Still with the winged pony of)Lord_Malkov put it quite well. The cavalier class, with a similar construction methodology, works out as follows:
** spoiler omitted **...
Its also worth pointing out that an Order of the Sword cavalier gets to add his mount's strength bonus to his charge attacks in addition to his own... that can be pretty tasty as a bonus, since the mount is likely to have a strength of at least 20.
But yeah... the cavalier is less MAD, but overall is just worse than the paladin in every area except offense. Since the stats provided can easily fill any MAD issues twice over, that part disappears.
I do still like the cavalier as a class... but paladins are very strong, and there is nothing like having those excellent saving throws plus lay on hands to make you a very tough target to bring down.
|
|
also, would a mounted warrior wielding a sword/scimitar work? you won't get 3x damage on the charge, only 2x but its still nice. Just wondering if there are any mechanical adv. to that. (bar the tons of flavor things, imo paladins hardly ever use spears/lances) (note, hardly, did not say they didn't. but its like a barbarian wielding a sword/shield :P )
No real mechanical advantage, no.
With a lance you get 3xweapon die + 4.5xStr + 4.5xPower Attack
You can do this with any two-hander to get 2xweapon die + 3xStr + 3xPower attack... but with a lance you also get to use a shield.
With a one hander, you are getting 2xWeapon Die + 2xStr + 2xPower Attack.
Even if you ignore weapon dice for damage, a 22 strength at level 12 means:
+63 damage for option 1
+42 damage for option 2
+28 damage for option 3
Its not like you can't do it... but if you do, you are better off going for mounted skirmisher and just ignoring mounted charges for the most part. That method will end up being best with shield bashing I would suspect, and if that is what your friend really wants, then maybe he should just ignore mounted combat altogether... or just be a fighter. If you want to work with mounted combat, Lance + Shield is really just the best option. (mounted archery ins't bad, but the benefit from the mount is pretty minimal)
|
|
hm. thats unfortunate, he just has a distance for the huge lances they use. spears are more okay but he has a hard on (pardon the phrase) for swords. and god forbid he try to decide if he likes 2handed or sword+shield look more (guess its a flavor issue, though he likes sword+shield a tad better he doesn't want to be "useless" in the damage against non-evil guys)
|
|
If a paladin takes an animated shield, he gains 4 rounds of fighting 2handed w/ scimitar or longsword + shield ac + bash attacks. can you attach a string to said shield (much like a weapon) and retrieve it as a swift action?
a paladin on a mount, that DOESN'T necessarily want to use a lance (for thematic reasons) would it be better to just not take any mounted feats and go twf or w/e or what?
"I seriously need some help as I -want- to be good with mounted combat since I finally got a DM to let my divine mount be a Pegasus, but I want to be good at other things as well."
sorry friends wording. Basically he can't pick what he wants his paladin to do lol
party is a swashbuckler, monk, and a sorc. in a homebrew campaign with all PF mat. available. He wants to make use of the epic mount. but has this hard on for SnS pally. I have told him to take a longsword (he isn't sure scimitars are flavorful enough, and mechanical vs flavor is about equal to him, bless his heart)
and to use the Shield vs mooks so they can't hit him and smite the BBEG with the 2handed sword while on his mount if applicable.