Balancing Minotaur in a grease spell

[The Human Diversion]

Minotaur in a grease spell ... how does the minotaur and the fact that it can't be caught flat-footed work with grease?

[Patterson]

umm... i dont know, but dot... my next spell is grease...

[Swashbuckles]

I definitely thought the title of this thread was a variation on the "bull in a china shop" metaphor when I clicked it.

[Green Smashomancer]

It... rolls for the reflex save like everything else? not entirely sure I understand the issue at hand.

[Zhayne]

it works exactly like it says it does, except that if the Minotaur would be considered flat-footed (hooved?) at any point, he isn't.

[The Human Diversion]

Green Smashomancer wrote:

It... rolls for the reflex save like everything else? not entirely sure I understand the issue at hand.

Minotaurs can't be caught flat footed, the grease spell makes you flat-footed due to having to make a balance check.

I just wish they'd clear up that "natural cunning" ability because in some situations it more or less gives minotaurs an infinitely high acrobatics score for the purposes of balancing.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.

Being caught flat footed is when you are flat footed at the start of combat, not when you become flat footed for some special effect.

The minotaur ability is fairly limited, it say: "Further, they are never caught flat-footed.", not "It is immune to the flat footed condition."

[LazarX]

The Human Diversion wrote:

Green Smashomancer wrote:

It... rolls for the reflex save like everything else? not entirely sure I understand the issue at hand.

Minotaurs can't be caught flat footed, the grease spell makes you flat-footed due to having to make a balance check.

Making a balance check does not make you flatfooted. It might deny your dex for some other reason, but that is not the same as being flat-footed which only occurs at the start of combat.

[Pizza Lord]

Acrobatics wrote:

While you are using Acrobatics in this way [balance], you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any).

The way I read it, while balancing you are both flat-footed and lose your Dex bonus (if any).

It's possible that they didn't intend to be redundant, since being Flat-footed basically means you lose your Dex bonus as well. However, they did write both and since there is a difference between the two (Flat-footed prevents you from making Attacks of Opportunity unless you have Combat Reflexes), they should be treated as two effects (which just overlap otherwise).

The minotaur will lose his Dex bonus, but will still be able to make AoOs while balancing.

[Zhayne]

LazarX wrote:

The Human Diversion wrote:

Green Smashomancer wrote:

It... rolls for the reflex save like everything else? not entirely sure I understand the issue at hand.

Minotaurs can't be caught flat footed, the grease spell makes you flat-footed due to having to make a balance check.

Making a balance check does not make you flatfooted. It might deny your dex for some other reason, but that is not the same as being flat-footed which only occurs at the start of combat.

The text for Acrobatics expressly states that you are flat-footed.

[gardengoth]

The Human Diversion wrote:

I just wish they'd clear up that "natural cunning" ability because in some situations it more or less gives minotaurs an infinitely high acrobatics score for the purposes of balancing.

Only as far as being flat-footed is concerned. If they try to move in the Grease and fail the check (which, out-of-the-box they make at +0), they still cannot move and risk falling, and at best if they pass they can move at half speed.