So I'm playing in a Curse of the Crimson Throne pbp game. I'm playing a normal rogue. If you want to check my stats, my alias is right here. Now, eventually, I want to turn him into a duelist or at least rapier focused. The classes I'm thinking are Fighter (Weapon Master) and Duelist. However, after reading the Urban Ranger archetype, I would like to include this class, too. Is there a way to make this build possible and functional?
That depends entirely on what you're trying to get out of these classes. Why do you want to take some Urban Ranger levels? Why Weapon Master Fighter? What do they have that you want to include in your build?
That depends entirely on what you're trying to get out of these classes. Why do you want to take some Urban Ranger levels? Why Weapon Master Fighter? What do they have that you want to include in your build?
Well, our team is comprised of a male human rogue (me), a female human fighter (brawler), a female human witch, a female human conjurer, a male human cavalier (order of the cockatrice; luring cavalier/musketeer), and a male human cleric of Groetus. So interesting party.
Anyway, what I'm looking for is to still be a rogue, but with a duelist flair. Over time, I decided to drop the Urban Ranger. Looking back, I only wanted to take it for the Favored Community to gain bonuses while in Korvosa. But then again, it doesn't seem to be worth it, especially when 3rd level urban rangers get trapfinding (it doesn't say if it stacks with rogue trapfinding). Do you think that I should take it?
The reason I want to take weapon master fighter is to focus more on the rapier (most likely candidate to become Blackjack). I think that 8 levels of Weapon Master should give me the benefits I want.
For a duelist, I think 5 levels would be good. It should give all of the benefits I'm looking for.
So the build would be rogue 7/fighter (weapon master) 8/duelist 5. Is this a good build?
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I would go Rogue (swashbuckler) then. It will give you another martial weapon proficiency (so you could take another ranged weapon or something) and the ability to take Combat Trick twice, but you will have to give up Trapfinding.
It is not likely that you will get up to 20th level before the campaign ends, unless the GM is planning to add much more material. Is he not letting you try the Swashbuckler class from the playtest? If he is, I would suggest taking that instead of Weaponmaster.
I have never tried this build, let me know how it works for you!
Yeah, dropping Urban Ranger is a good move. You're not getting anything out of it that will further your combat prowess that you can't get from Fighter, nor anything that furthers your skills or abilities that you don't get from Rogue levels.
What you've got here is certainly a workable plan, tieflingwizard, and I like it. You're compensating for the Rogue's big combat weaknesses(HD, BAB, Fort Save) with some Fighter levels, which also nets you some extra feats for what will likely be a feat-starved build. However, it doesn't really seem to fit what you're looking for. What you've got there seems to be more of a fighter with some sneak attack dice, not a rogue with duelist panache. By focusing on the fighter levels, you're putting much less emphasis on the Rogue's strengths(Skill points, SA, Rogue Talents, Trapfinding) and more emphasis on their weaknesses.
As such,I'd recommend shifting the level priorities from Fighter->Rogue->Duelist to Rogue->Duelist->Fighter. You'll still compensate for the Rogue's combat weaknesses and still be able to carry the Rogue's strengths - especially important, as it looks like your group composition needs some of those strengths, while also needing someone who can fight on the frontlines if needs must. My recommendation for a specific level outline is Rogue 9/Duelist 6/Fighter 5.
Lastly, I would actually ask that you re-consider using an archetype for the Fighter. The fact is, whether you are taking 5 levels in the class or 8, you're also taking X amount of Duelist levels, which require light to no armor to make proper use of. The Armor Training of the Fighter will be invaluable in particular to your build, and I would shy away from anything that would trade it out for something else(which, I believe, includes most of the Fighter Archetypes). The bonus feats and Weapon Training, while incredibly helpful as well, as simply gravy in comparison.
(If you can find something that does away with only Bravery, though, take it if you like it!)
With all this in mind, I'll end by saying that these are recommendations based on what I think you want. I could very well be wrong, and, as I've said already, your build is certainly workable, and if you dislike or disapprove of my suggestions, feel free to disregard them.
I simply hope I've helped you out with this.
Yeah, dropping Urban Ranger is a good move. You're not getting anything out of it that will further your combat prowess that you can't get from Fighter, nor anything that furthers your skills or abilities that you don't get from Rogue levels.
What you've got here is certainly a workable plan, tieflingwizard, and I like it. You're compensating for the Rogue's big combat weaknesses(HD, BAB, Fort Save) with some Fighter levels, which also nets you some extra feats for what will likely be a feat-starved build. However, it doesn't really seem to fit what you're looking for. What you've got there seems to be more of a fighter with some sneak attack dice, not a rogue with duelist panache. By focusing on the fighter levels, you're putting much less emphasis on the Rogue's strengths(Skill points, SA, Rogue Talents, Trapfinding) and more emphasis on their weaknesses.
As such,I'd recommend shifting the level priorities from Fighter->Rogue->Duelist to Rogue->Duelist->Fighter. You'll still compensate for the Rogue's combat weaknesses and still be able to carry the Rogue's strengths - especially important, as it looks like your group composition needs some of those strengths, while also needing someone who can fight on the frontlines if needs must. My recommendation for a specific level outline is Rogue 9/Duelist 6/Fighter 5.
Lastly, I would actually ask that you re-consider using an archetype for the Fighter. The fact is, whether you are taking 5 levels in the class or 8, you're also taking X amount of Duelist levels, which require light to no armor to make proper use of. The Armor Training of the Fighter will be invaluable in particular to your build, and I would shy away from anything that would trade it out for something else(which, I believe, includes most of the Fighter Archetypes). The bonus feats and Weapon Training, while incredibly helpful as well, as simply gravy in comparison.
(If you can find something that does away with only Bravery, though, take it if you like it!)
With all this in mind, I'll...
That sounds good, Talking Skull. I'm just wondering how I should order that? Like, would it be take 2 levels of rogue, then 2 levels of fighter, then go rogue, etc.? Or would you suggest the full 9 levels of rogue, then duelist, and end with fighter? I looked it up and the normal level caps off at 16 for the entire adventure path. But would it end at a higher or lower level due to us playing with the Pathfinder rules rather than D&D 3.5 rules? So, your ideas and suggestions on the build?
Also, the feats I would like to take are Weapon Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. Also the rogue talents that I'm looking at include Bleeding Attack, Canny Observer, Charmer, Combat Trick, Distracting Attack, Esoteric Scholar, Expert Leaper, Face in the Crowd, Fast Fingers, Fast Getaway, Fast Stealth, Getaway Artist, Honeyed Words, Ki Pool, Ledge Walker, Nimble Climber, Ninja Trick (smoke bomb), Ninja Trick (shadow clone), Offensive Defense, Peerless Maneuver, Powerful Sneak, Rope Master, Snap Shot, Surprise Attack, Underhanded, Wall Scramble, and Weapon Training. I haven't picked any advanced talents because at Rogue 9, I won't be able to pick any advanced talents. Any advice on feats and talents?
You want to take 5 levels of Fighter before end game as that opens up Weapon Training and therefore, Gloves of Dueling. Also, I suggest the Lore Warden archetype as a fighter. It's extremely good for duelist-esque players as it nets you more skill points than fighters normally get, you get free Combat Expertise, and an untyped +2 bonus to all combat maneuvers which is a big help since you are taking Disarm.
Are you planning on getting an Agile rapier? Or would you be up for taking Dervish Dance? The Dueling enhancement from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide is a +1 bonus and is fabulous for Disarm and Trip.
Note, the Dueling was removed from PFSRD for some reason, but can be found at the Archives of Nethys.
A feat chain to consider taking is Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte as this nets you a free parry/riposte by the time you finish the chain, and a -1/+4 return on Fighting Defensively (+5 if you have 3 ranks in acrobatics). It's feat intensive (you need Imp. Unarmed Strike to take it) but it's a very powerful chain.
I notice you don't plan to take Power Attack/Piranha Strike to help keep your static damage up. You might consider it, as Sneak Attacks aren't always possible.
I don't know how your GM feels about tweaking magic items in general, but you might consider taking a Sword of Subtlety, figuring out the cost of the 'Subtlety' property (subtract the cost of a +1 shortsword) and adding it to your weapon of choice (rapier or scimitar if using Dervish Dance). If your GM doesn't allow that, I'd consider taking that sword over a normal weapon. You miss out on the larger crit range, but +4 to hit and damage when sneak attacking is pretty darn good.
Tels makes an excellent point on the Lore Warden. Look it over and consider if you want to use it.
If your GM is using the Fast experience track for this game, you should end up with about 16 levels, yes.
Level Order:
1-4: Rogue
5-7: Fighter
8-11: Duelist
12: Rogue
13-14: Fighter
15-16: Rogue
Feats are pretty god, except for Greater Disarm; you don't need it. Power Attack's static boosts are nearly essential in lategame, so pick that up instead. It'll also open up some new feat options for you.
Consider Improved Critical, as well. It might be easier to just buy a Keen enchantment on the weapon instead. Depends on if you have the cash, and what you'd prefer to spend it on. You're the only one who can make this decision, but you don't need to make it now.
Other feat options are Bloody/Dazing Assault, Improved/Greater Dirty Trick, Improved/Greater Feint, Improved/Greater Sunder, Iron Will, Lunge, Nimble Moves, Step Up, Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, and Toughness. You'll have some extra slots from Fighter levels to work with, so pick the ones that you think work best for your concept and playstyle. As Tels has pointed out, Crane Style and its requisite feat are also strong options, though it's kinda expensive to invest in(4 feats total for the whole thing).
For the rogue talents, I've only got some general advice. Steer clear of the Ki Pool and Ninja tricks that use Ki, because you're not getting anywhere near enough Ki for that. Stay away from the talents that modify your sneak attack too, most of them are dependent on the number of sneak attack die you have for their adverse effects; the only one you should consider from that pool is Offensive Defense. Anything that lets you do something cool like move at full speed while stealthed/using Acrobatics is good, as is anything that lets you roll twice and take the better. You should also consider Positioning Attack. You'll just have to choose which ones you think you'll use or want to use the most.
So here is what I was thinking of for the build. I included all of the class abilities at each level, as well as things like feats, ability score increases, etc.
1st level (rogue 1): Weapon Finesse; sneak attack +1d6; trapfinding
Human bonus feat: Extra Traits
2nd level (rogue 2): Rogue Talent (fast stealth); evasion
3rd level (rogue 3): Weapon Focus (Rapier); trap sense +1; sneak attack +2d6
4th level (rogue 4): Dex +1; Rogue Talent (combat trick [Improved Unarmed Strike]); uncanny dodge
5th level (fighter [lore warden] 1): Scholastic; Dodge; Mobility
6th level (fighter [lore warden] 2): Power Attack; Expertise (gain Combat Expertise feat)
7th level (fighter [lore warden] 3): Crane Style; Maneuver Mastery
8th level (duelist 1): Dex +1; Canny Defense; Precise Strike
9th level (duelist 2): Crane Wing; Improved Reaction; Parry
10th level (duelist 3): Enhanced Mobility
11th level (duelist 4): Crane Riposte; Combat Reflexes (gain Combat Reflexes feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon); Grace
12th level (rogue 5): Dex +1; sneak attack +3d6
13th level (fighter [lore warden] 4): Improved Disarm; Iron Will
14th level (fighter [lore warden] 5): Weapon Training (Light Blades)
15th level (rogue 6): Weapon Specialization (Rapier); Rogue Talent (positioning attack); trap sense +2
16th level (rogue 7): Dex +1; sneak attack +4d6
So what do you guys think? Is there anything I need to change?
Looks good. The only thing I have to suggest is change one of your Dex increases to an Int increase. The permanent boost will give you extra AC when you hit Duelist, and more skill points over all levels.
It's really up to you, and how much you value your skill points; increasing Dex gives you much more for combat prowess(AC, Reflex, Attack Bonus, Damage bonus with Agile enchantment).
Looks good. The only thing I have to suggest is change one of your Dex increases to an Int increase. The permanent boost will give you extra AC when you hit Duelist, and more skill points over all levels.
It's really up to you, and how much you value your skill points; increasing Dex gives you much more for combat prowess(AC, Reflex, Attack Bonus, Damage bonus with Agile enchantment).
Okay. Maybe increase my Dexterity to 18. Then go with Intelligence for the rest. Or maybe order it as Dex, Int, Int, Dex.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of Rogue levels as a part of a Duelist build, because they just delay access to the Duelist by almost half your career as an adventurer. Keep in mind, unless the GM does a lot of extra work, most adventure paths end in the 15-18 level range. So if you don't become a Duelist until level 9ish, you are spending half of your career not being able to do what you want your character to be known for.
However, since you want to keep the Rogue levels included, I would see how your GM feels about transplanting the properties of specific magic items on to other items. For instance, the Sword of Subtlety would be a great weapon for your character, especially if you are able to increase the enhancement modifier and add other properties.
It just gets even better if you can modify it to be a Rapier instead of a Short Sword.
Imagine, if you will, the ability to have a +5 Agile Rapier of Subtelty. Anytime you sneak attack, that sword would be giving a +9 to hit and +9 to damage. Toss on Gloves of Dueling which would bump your weapon training to +3 to hit and damage, and you've got a respectable damage dealer.
By my best guesstimation, the 'Subtelty' ability costs 20,000 gp. I figure that is how much it costs after subtracting the cost of a +1 shortsword from the cost of a Sword of Subtelty. You would be looking at the price range of ~92,000 gp to enchant a rapier as a +5 agile rapier of subtlety.