Hi all,
I've struggled a bit with balancing encounters in RotR (currently about to wrap up Thistletop).
The encounters as written seem laughably easy for my 5 character party, which includes a paladin, monk, sorcerer, fighter (Archer)/rogue and a druid whose bear companion is quite effective in combat.
Both to make things a little tougher, and inject some realism (the party have not been subtle), I've tried combining encounters into larger battles (e.g. Bruthazmus, Lyrie and Orik hitting the party as a group).
The result has not been what I had hoped. Whilst more challenging (certainly for the poor paladin who bears the brunt of the damage) the combats take ages to play through and leave the party bereft of healing. As a result, they've taken 3 days in-game to work through Thistletop and are likely to take one more to complete it. The result feels more like a siege than an adventure.
Have I missed the intent of the authors and should I revert back to the encounters as written?
Is this simply normal for Pathfinder (certainly our inexperience with the system will be protracting the battles)?
Is there another way I can introduce a feeling of danger that doesn't drag everything out?
Any advice or observations will be appreciated.
Okay. Here's the thing: you have five players in a game intended for four. While the Pathfinder Rulebook claims that doesn't unbalance things... it does. So you're doing the right thing by increasing the number of foes... because your players each have an action, but one big enemy only has one or two actions in response. (Minions are always of use.)
One way to speed up the combats is to take notes on everything so you have everything you need on hand. There are computer programs like Hero Labs and the like which can also speed things up, but many of those cost money. (That said, I do recommend Hero Labs, at least at first - once the players become more powerful, though, using it to control combat might start to drag down your computer.)
Thistletop has killed a number of groups. There have been multiple Total Party Kills written in the Obits column. It sounds to me like you've balanced threat with deadliness (and the Paladin will have to learn to fight alongside others rather than taking the entire brunt of the fight).
Also, read up on enemies and the encounters before the game. Do this several times so you know what the enemy can and cannot do - and the recommended tactics. This can help ensure you use enemies to their greatest effect.
Good luck! :) Even old-timers like myself have troubles running fights and the like at times. In time you'll find shortcuts and the like to speed things up. And your players will also learn subtlety. ;)
I don't think I could say it any better than it's put here. Pay particular attention to the talk of upping numbers with mook level enemies as opposed to just another higher CR creature.
Beyond the advice there, a lot of it depends on how you're running combat. I started running RotR a few weeks ago and we're not quite to the party making their first run at Thistletop. The first few sessions went very slow, largely because of the number of people (8 players), but because I was drawing out the maps on a gaming mat, looking up monster stats on a case by case basis. D20pro changed a lot of that...
There's more prep work, and there is the learning curve of getting familiar with the program...but a few sessions of using the program and I'm seriously considering having all twelve of my players present for the raid on Thistletop (the 8 turned into two groups of 4, which quickly jumped to two groups of 6).
To me the CR system doesn't quite work, additionally many of the encounters in the book don't work. Personally I don't blame you for combining encounters as honestly fighting most of the baddies 1 per time results in incredibly short fights. Don't be surprised if strong individuals/bosses get one or two rounded by a full party.
Something to take into account is that bear companion is equal to another player character in terms of power. Add that to your APL for working out CR. Your current APL is really character levels +2 for an easy-medium fight.
Enforcing the longer days and having players run out of spells, supplies and consumables is the point of multiple encounters. Otherwise every encounter will result in players nuking the baddies and making encounter cakewalks.
There's nothing wrong with 3 big encounters a session rather than 6 cake walks. I see a big problem if players can win a fight in 1-3 rounds, which is how the book has built many of them.
As for speeding up the game I second Hero Labs. All of my players play with it on ipads and I use it for running the game. Some one has already created all of the monsters in hero lab format so that helps.
I usually farm off the init order to a player. There are free or cheap apps for that.
Since I've been playing with the same group for 15 years I convinced my self that I could spend the money on a used projector. I prep the maps a head of time and run two instances of maptool. I project the instance from the clients instance view which allows me to reveal the map as they explore a dungeon.
For battles I have three battle mats that I've pre drawn the most likley battles they are about to encounter.
All this tremendously speeds up the game.
The next campaign my group is doing is "Wrath of the Righteous" which I going to co DM with another person. So the game should speed up even more
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Since I've been playing with the same group for 15 years I convinced my self that I could spend the money on a used projector. I prep the maps a head of time and run two instances of maptool. I project the instance from the clients instance view which allows me to reveal the map as they explore a dungeon.
I would like to do something like this, though our group doesn't meet regularly enough to justify the costs.
Do you project onto the tablefor them to move their figs, or onto a wall?
I've been using web programs like roll20 and the like. One of my groups is via Skype and it works far better than a webcam. I introduced it to my tabletop group (which includes a Skype player) and it sped THAT combat up as well. You need to do prep work like loading the map in, and you can't always align the grids to the map (though there are ways around that), but seeing exactly where models are, how far they can move, and the like is a tremendous help.
Paizo is working on a product for this as well, which they'll offer for free from what I have heard and will then include add-ons you buy. I must admit I'd love to hear more about this as it's a closed beta so... ^^;;
We rotate between a few houses for play so we use what ever wall is available. Sometimes its just even a sheet over a large screen TV. I only use one character its really so I don't have to draw a map in a hurry. Plus I'm always outta scale :)
Don't combine encounters, just give all the mobs max hitpoints.
The fights last a round or two longer, but each round isn't increased in duration. The additional rounds further deplete the party's resources, as the casters cast additional spells and the tanks take additional damage which must be healed. This makes each subsequent encounter slightly more difficult.
When I encounter a party that is more powerful than expected, I find this method to be extremely simple and effective.
Thanks for your input everyone.
I think I'll aim for adding in some minions where appropriate (because that sounds fun) and going with max (or even a few extra...) hits in other circumstances.
We finished Burnt Offerings over the weekend. I hadn't had a chance to revise the encounter. Malfeshnekor went down in 4 rounds. Smite Evil is brutal, though they did have to rush some healing to the Paladin.
Without Blink, I don't think he'd have lasted beyond 2 rounds.
Even so, I think the encounter was well enjoyed by everyone and there were a couple of concerned faces at the table when Malf managed to land a bite and both claws :-)
The CR system assumes 1 melee, 1 arcane, and 2 utility (3/4 BAB classes).
You have 2.5 melee, 1 arcane, and 1.5 utility.
Personally I'd add 75% to each mobs hps - and possibly lower the saves\DC's on mooks by 1 (not bosses).
I use a program called DM's familiar to run my combats - takes a bit of time to get comfortable with but makes combats go *so* much faster. The nice thing for me is it randomly rolls hps on the fly for monsters (it can use a preset # as well I just like random).
When my party balance was melee heavy like you have I just took what it rolled and added to it.
Just my 2 cents though.