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Morning All,
I was looking at some Oracle options and a question came up on the Gnome Favored Class Option of:
"Oracle: Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of the oracle's curse ability."
The question that arose was what happens if that curse grants spells to a spell list? Do the spells follow the standard bonus spell trend of becoming a spell of the level granted to the character?
Specifically in this case is the Blackened Curse:
Source Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels
Your hands and forearms are shriveled and blackened, as if you had plunged your arms into a blazing fire, and your thin, papery skin is sensitive to the touch.
Effect
You take a –4 penalty on weapon attack rolls, but you add burning hands to your list of spells known.
At 5th level, add scorching ray and flaming sphere to your list of spells known.
At 10th level, add wall of fire to your list of spells known and your penalty on weapon attack rolls is reduced to –2.
At 15th level, add delayed blast fireball to your list of spells known.
If a Gnome were to put every level bonus into the specific Oracle FCB they would gain Scorching ray and Burning Sphere at level 4, which is no big deal as they are level 2 spells and castable at that level. However, they would then gain Wall of Fire at 7th level, making it a 3rd level spell for them and then Delayed Blast Fireball at level 10 when they can cast 5th level spells, when DBF is normally a 7th level spell.
The other possibility would be that the FCB only applies to the specific modifiers, in this case the -4/-2 to hit with melee weapons, but even at my conservative worst I don't think that is the case.
There is precedence for early spell access:
The Sorcerer Aquatic Bloodline grants the Geyser Spell as a 4th level spell at 9th level, as opposed to the standard 5th level. However, that spell is also available as a 4th level Druid spell, so it is not a huge stretch. FAQ here
I am torn on this one, a part of me wants to just say "No, DBF is too powerful to get as a 5th level spell", however, it really isn't that unbalanced and saying no out of hand seems to be invalidating the Favored Class Bonus for that race as it can't be applied to any variable, only the curse.
I cannot find any FAQs besides the one on Geyser that even come close to addressing this, so any thoughts or support one way or the other?
It may be on your list of spells known, but if you don't have a slot to cast it will, it's not going to do you any good. It says nothing about reducing the spell level, so Wall of Fire is still a fourth level spell and Delayed Blast Fireball is still a seventh-level spell. Similar, a fourth level Wizard is free to write a ninth-level spell in their spellbook. That doesn't let them cast it at a second-level spell.
It is not invalidating the Favored Class Bonus for the race. They get to reduce their weapon attack penalty early. There are other FCBs that require you to take specific things to gain a benefit, like races that grant a bonus to the Superstitious Barbarian Rage Power. You can either take a curse that benefits more from that FCB or you can take a hit point or a skill point. The alternate option for FCB is an option, and may not always be better than taking a hit point or skill point.
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It may be on your list of spells known, but if you don't have a slot to cast it will, it's not going to do you any good. It says nothing about reducing the spell level, so Wall of Fire is still a fourth level spell and Delayed Blast Fireball is still a seventh-level spell. Similar, a fourth level Wizard is free to write a ninth-level spell in their spellbook. That doesn't let them cast it at a second-level spell.
Except that is not how it works for spontaneous casters. The level they learn a spell at determines the spell level it is for them. A specific differentiation is in place for the Crossblooded Sorcerer archetype since they can take a lower level spell from either bloodline at a higher level.
For example, the Life Oracle gains the Mass Heal spell as a bonus spell at level 16, it is a 9th level spell, which Oracles cannot cast until level 18. Are you proposing the idea that that Oracle cannot use that spell for 2 more levels?
I am trying to look at every possibility here before getting definitive as there seems to be some vagaries and variables involved.
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Perhaps a simpler way of looking at it:
A Blackened Gnome Oracle (great with A1 btw) is considered Xth level for considering when they get these new spells known - so they will count as that level for what level of spell it is (even if they can't actually cast it yet).
This would mean that they can use scrolls/wands of those spells earlier also.
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I am actually just curious to see how this should be officially adjudicated because if it did grant the spells as an earlier cast level... as some other bonus spells for spontaneous caster classes and some domain spells are... it would mean that the character could have access to DBF on a PFS legal character.
Granted, the spell is not overwhelming, it is still just d6 per level, only without the 10d6 cap.
Normally I am the ultra conservative rules "Grognard", but in this case I don't just want to say "No" out of hand, because there seems to be precedence to support his standpoint.
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Any other takes on this?
Would the +1/2 to Curse effects apply to Curses that grant bonus spells instead of static mechanical bonuses?
Would those spells, if received early, then count as a spell level appropriate to when received for that Oracle?
Precedence in saying "Yes, the spells come early as lower than standard spell levels", resides in the bonus spells given to some bloodlines and mysteries.
Conservative arbiter of rules in me wants to say "No, you should not get a spell early".
Comparing the spell in question in this case, Delayed Blast Fireball, which would be gotten and cast as a level 5 spell, to Flame Strike, also level 5 same damage dice, 15d6 damage cap vs 20d6 cap, however half of the damage is not subject to fire resist.
It is more of a curiosity at this point, but now I am interested in what the official ruling on this is.
Thanks,
Foms
I agree with Majuba and it is how I have seen it ruled. I have a similar situation with my sorcerer and a Robe of Arcane Heritage. I treat my level as 4 levels higher when determining bloodline powers, which gives me access to higher level spells. But since I cannot normally cast said spells I cannot actually cast them.
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I agree with Majuba and it is how I have seen it ruled. I have a similar situation with my sorcerer and a Robe of Arcane Heritage. I treat my level as 4 levels higher when determining bloodline powers, which gives me access to higher level spells. But since I cannot normally cast said spells I cannot actually cast them.
Except that the Robe of Arcane Heritage in no way affects the bonus spells of a bloodline, "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."
That does enable a sorcerer to gain early access to bloodline powers, it does not change anything as far as the bloodline spell progression.
Certain Oracle Mysteries and Sorcerer Bloodlines already have bonus spells given at levels prior to when they could normally be learned, I am fairly certain those spells are meant to be usable when received as Sorcerers and Oracles don't have spell books they write spells down in for later use, it is a matter of limited slots plus bonus spells and that is all you know and use.
The question is then, does the FCB of certain races that adds to the character level for curse progression apply to static abilities only, or to all curse abilities including bonus spells. And if it does apply to the bonus spells from certain curses, are those spells learned at a level according to what the Oracle can cast at the time. (In the case here, a Gnome with the Blackened Curse gaining Wall of Fire as a 3rd level spell and Delayed Blast Fireball as a 5th level spell).
Again, is it game breaking or world shattering? No, not really. But it might grant a particular race/curse combination a bit more offensive casting options.