I'm building a level 11 witch. With a 1 level dip into mindchemist alchemist and ability focus, I can get a DC 28 on my hexes. This seems to me above what most would say is a good DC and crosses over into solid/high/very good. The threat of a natural 20 always exists. However, I'm curious if I should drop accursed hex from my feat list.
My group has a blaster wizard, a fighter, cleric, and oracle/rogue. Fights don't last long so the prospect of spending two rounds to get the hex off seems wasteful.
What do you think?
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I think never multi class a full caster without amazingly good reason. I read over mind chemist alchemist, and I see no incredibly good reason to drop a level of witch for it. You lose spell progression, hex progression.
Also, I like combats to last 3-5 rounds. More is overly taxing, less and there is very little reason to even bother.
You didn't say any build rules so here goes.
Elf (Dreamspeaker) with Honeyed Tongue from following a dwarves god whose name begins with G.
20 int +1 at 4 and 8 = 22 +4 headband = 26 Int = +4 from cognatogen? = 30 = +10 Int Bonus? This is my best guess
So. DC = 10+5(level)+2(Ability Focus) +1 Dreamspeaker +1 Honeyed Tongue +10 Int = 29 DC on slumber for 10 minutes a day . . . no idea how the heck you get to DC 28 on all hexes, so explain?
Good point on the save, Corlindale. Though, 10/11 still provide a +5.
Being a half-elf, I'm taking paragon surge to gain whatever hex I need via extra hex. At level 10, that opens all major hexes so I don't see waiting two levels before I get my next permanent one as a huge deal. Big/shouldn't ignore it, but not huge. Waiting to 19 to get grand hexes is salty, granted.
What I gain from the dip is another boost to int, mostly. I see using it in particularly hard fights for spell DCs as well. I think my highest spell DC with feats would be 27 with spell focus.
I'm getting DC 28 from level (+5), int of 28 (+9), ability focus (+2), alchemical bonus (+2). The int comes from base 16, race +2, levels +2, and +8 from a bonded item as I'm playing a bonded witch, +4 cognatogen.
There is a 30% discount to items requiring a specific class. Since witch bonded items can only be used by their particular witch, which is even more restrictive, but it's the most general situation that applies, I'm using it. That math works to 64,000 (8*8*1000) * .7 (the difference from subtracting the 30% discount) * .5 (crafting cost) = 22,400gp. Not being a headband, I get those skill ranks to spend as I choose. I hate the headband and skill thing.
I suggest to not multiclass, as you lose 6th level spells. If you want somehow keep up the dc, I suggest to invest one feat on split hex to target two enemies at once and use the combo evil eye + cackle: basically a -4 to saves, lasting 1 round plus another round of you cackle. So the deal is: evil eye on first round, if target saves cackle as move action, then next round your targets get a save at dc 30 because evil eye with split hex, and if you split even the other hex, you can target 2 enemies a at dc 30 in 2 rounds.
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You want the DC high enough that the enemy needs a 20 to succeed.
And then triggers your Misfortune.
Your save DC is not high enough until it causes your GM to start crying delicious, salty tears of pain and frustration that you can use to quench your thirst while at the table.
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"High enough" is when all your enemies need a 20 to save against them. The question is at what point are your resources better directed elsewhere? You can buy a lot with the thousands it takes to upgrade an Intelligence item. How are your defenses? Is another 5% chance for your enemies to fail their saves worth more than the extra versatility granted by Pearls of Power or other potions/scrolls? Also being a frail caster that has to be within 30 feet of enemies would make me very uneasy without some
Remember, as you level up the difference between the good and poor saves gets bigger and bigger; it's more about having the right spell than having a high DC. If I were you, I would worry more about buffing my own saves/defense and saving up for a Rod of Lesser Quicken than picking up more things to try and tweak my hex DCs a little higher. Something like a Bracelet of Second Chances could easily save your life one day...
I subscribe to the answer of: "Your DC needs to be as high as what you want to have thrown back at you by the opposition regularly" methodology.
If the bad guys need 20's to save against you usually, you better expect the parties to be needing 20's also. ;)
I looked up the CR 13/14/15 monsters in the prd bestiary index and for most of them it would take a natural 20 as is. There was one with like 21/19/21 which is amazing but it was an outlier. Mind you, misfortune is what I have ability focused. ;) Regardless of the negs from evil eye, the way misfortune throws off probability is the must have, imo. I'll probably lead with misfortune and then evil eye and cackle if they save. I'll fall back to a quickened ill omen and hex double tap thereafter as needed.
On level 6 spells... prehensile hair and slay living is BOSS, yes. I'll reconsider the mindchemist dip. As of now you guys have me leaning to undoing it. (Thanks, jerks! haha) On the dip, I do like having 10/day bombs at 1d6+9 damage with 10 damage splash. Not huge, but it's a good back up and useful option depending on the situation. Being energy, they bypass DR. I was even contemplating working in a 2nd level into mindchemist to get that doubling of int to knowledge skills. +18 to those suckers is attractive. If I did it now, I could have my knowledge (arcana) at a base +42 with the others from +24 to +35 on each knowledge (even knowledge (history)). Our wizard usually gets good monster checks but it can never hurt getting more info about your enemy. I've even thought about adding some +5 skill buffs to my bonded item. (Yes, I know I don't get the 30% discount on those.)
Back to the DCs. High enough? I think the general answer I'm getting back is yes. At least, they are for now.
I like your style Rynjin.
"High enough" is when all your enemies need a 20 to save against them. The question is at what point are your resources better directed elsewhere? You can buy a lot with the thousands it takes to upgrade an Intelligence item. How are your defenses? Is another 5% chance for your enemies to fail their saves worth more than the extra versatility granted by Pearls of Power or other potions/scrolls? Also being a frail caster that has to be within 30 feet of enemies would make me very uneasy without some
Remember, as you level up the difference between the good and poor saves gets bigger and bigger; it's more about having the right spell than having a high DC. If I were you, I would worry more about buffing my own saves/defense and saving up for a Rod of Lesser Quicken than picking up more things to try and tweak my hex DCs a little higher. Something like a Bracelet of Second Chances could easily save your life one day...
The way my GM does pearls of power make them feel flat to me but I get your message. He interprets that, while they bring back the spell, they don't restore the slot. Since you're bound to a number of castings per day, and the item doesn't change this, that's how it is. Now, runestones of power do change this, using the item to cast the spell instead of your slots, so he's fine letting that slide, comparatively. So, you get a sort of sorcerer-like feel to using the pearls. If you had 5 level 6 slots, you could cast the same spell 5 times given sufficient pearls even though only having prepared it once. But, after that, you couldn't cast anymore level 6 spells until the next day. It's not a bad way to handle them, but it's not as great as having both spell and slot back.
The amount to back the bonded item down to a +6 does get me 11,200gp back. However, I think I'm okay with it as is since I intend to play the witch more around the hexes having paragon surge as a spell. For spells, I plan on using them surgically, on a per enemy per encounter basis, depending how those knowledge rolls work out.
My own saves are decent at 14/13/15 multiclassed. Being immune to sleep and getting that +2 vs enchantment is a nice boon. That's with a +4 resistance bonus to saves. I could further enchant my bonded item for a +2 bonus for 6,000gp, but that's rather pricey for the benefit.
My weakness (and always is with casters) is AC. I'm still figuring out how to deal with that and have about 40,000gp to do so. My usage of scrolls I don't see being huge since I plan on being conservative with spells. I'll have some backups, yes, but I don't see them being a mainstay to any degree. Right now, multiclassed, I have 27 spells per day compared to 30 spells per day going single class and 2 of those being level 6s. My overall combat cadence was to hex, use an enchantment or necromancy spells once or twice, bomb for supplemental damage, and hexing more as needed.
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There are some witch-specific magic items in d20pfsrd. Let's just say you might look nice with a corset and a blouse.
PS: That Pearls of Power ruling is whack. For the money you're sinking into those you deserve the spell back. And it says right there in the description "The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast."
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I'm going to second the "get as high DCs as you're ready to have thrown back at you". I hope Rynjin's sarcasm isnt lost on you, because creating "unbeatable" an "unbeatable" character can make GMs very nasty. What you might think is an outlier will start becoming standard if you abuse this.
As for the DCs, I generally kit my characters to have saves=HD. Which means DCs=10+HD is the minimum to have useful DCs.
As for witch-specific items, see here:
http://zenithgames.blogspot.ca/2013/11/improving-your-class-with-items.html
I'm getting DC 28 from level (+5), int of 28 (+9), ability focus (+2), alchemical bonus (+2). The int comes from base 16, race +2, levels +2, and +8 from a bonded item as I'm playing a bonded witch, +4 cognatogen.
There is a 30% discount to items requiring a specific class. Since witch bonded items can only be used by their particular witch, which is even more restrictive, but it's the most general situation that applies, I'm using it. That math works to 64,000 (8*8*1000) * .7 (the difference from subtracting the 30% discount) * .5 (crafting cost) = 22,400gp. Not being a headband, I get those skill ranks to spend as I choose. I hate the headband and skill thing.
I think you have some math errors.
I don't see how you can get a +8 bonus from your bonded item.Int:
Base -- 16
Race -- 2
Levels -- 2
cognatogen -- 4 alchemical
bonded item -- 6 enhancement [max non-epic value]
total: 16 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 6 = 30 -> +10 DC
Hex DC:
Base -- 10
Int -- 10
Level -- 5
Feat(AF) -- 2
Total: 10 + 10 + 5 + 2 = 27
The cognatogen is an alchemical bonus to Int and not DC, so you can't count it twice.
Still, a DC of 27 is good (but it drops to 24 when the cognatogen ends).
As to the 30% discount, it does not apply. The bonded object has only one possible user, so making restrictions that don't limit it also don't reduce price. If it only worked part time, you might get a discount, but even that would be up to the GM. You do, however, count as already having the crafting feats needed to enhance it if you also have the level for the feat. Thar crafting costs 50% of the final price. That first, and only the first effect, is at the normal price. All later ones are at +50% price, unless you can convince the GM that the ability somehow makes more sense as a staff. However, that would not likely work without compelling arguments to the GM. Remember, the GM has approval for all custom items, which your bonded item is.
This Ioun Stone grants an Int bonus, and it also has a skill associated with it. Generally, items that give Int are hardcoded to a particular skill point usage. For a +6 item, pick 3 skills. Knowledge skills are good, but so are social skills. Good news is that you also get 3 languages.
/cevah
Show me the max value of an ability item rule.
Technically there's not, but also technically anything with higher than a +6 to a single stat is a custom item, as it is not listed in the book as an available option.
Show me the max value of an ability item rule.
Just did some checking. Seems like that limit in3.5 was left out of PF.
/cevah
Any enchanting of an item is a custom item. If you're not buying a bona fide Headband of Vast Intellect or the like and getting an enhancement bonus to INT from an item that's a custom item.