| Elbedor |
I'm not going to put down all the specifics, but just wanted to toss out the idea. I heard it mentioned in passing before and wondered if anyone had experience with playing it or seeing it in action.
Fighter.
IUS, Impr Grapple, Greater Grapple.
WF and GWF in Grapple and Heavy Shield Bashing.
Shield Bashing feats line.
Wpn Spec and Greater Wpn Spec in Heavy Shield Bashing.
Weapons Training: Close.
Vital Strike feats line.
Basically you initiate the Grapple in Round 1 at a -4 since you only have 1 hand free. In Round 2, use your Move Action to maintain the Grapple and Pin your target. Use your Standard Action to Greater Vital Strike him with your Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing. Damage should be around 8d6 + Str + enhancements if Shield Master + Feats and class abilities + any enhancements you've put on the shield spikes as a weapon (flaming, shocking, etc).
Repeat until you've pounded him senseless into the ground.
This would primarily be for taking down casters, if not other targets.
Reynard_the_fox
|
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why shields? And why vital strike? This seems like 3 builds mashed into one. If you're going to be a grappler, giving yourself a -4 to your main maneuver is not a good idea, and you can pummel your opponent just fine with your fists or a regular weapon. Free bull rush from Shield Slam also seems antithetical to a grappling build, and Vital Strike doesn't make a lot of sense because most of the time if you only have a standard action available you'll use it to start a grapple.
If you want to take down casters, focus on the Disruptive and Spellbreaker line of feats, and stuff like Stand Still. (Grappling stuff is good too - check out the Unarmed Fighter archetype.) What other reasons did you have for the specific combo of grappling and shield bashing?
PS: Sorry, I don't mean to be mean. Just want to get you a viable build that gets the feel you're going for. : )
| Gwen Smith |
Grapple builds are fairly useful in stopping most casters because the concentration check for "casting while grappled" is ungodly high.
I'm not seeing the benefit of forcing yourself to grapple one-handed just so you can use a shield bash. If the point is "because I think it would look cool", well, then, OK. :-)
If you want to go that route, I would recommend starting as a grapple build first and working up to the point where you can grapple one-handed with few or no penalties (I think Tetori monk has some class features along this line). After that, pick up the shield in the "extra" hand.
(There's an Equipment Trick feat in Adventurer's Armory, which give you "shield gag" when you grapple with a shield in your hand... http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat)
| Elbedor |
Don't worry, I'm not taking this as mean. Feedback is very welcome. I need good, healthy criticism to hammer out the finer points. :)
Why Shields? There's been some discussion of a Shield Master build which I find I like. A Captain America of sorts really, with being able to 2-hand a heavy spiked bashing shield for 2d6 base damage plus 1.5 Strength while just bashing targets. And with the right feat combo, I get to keep my shield AC, apply the shield enhancements to my Attack and Damage and basically be the AC tank in the party with some decent damage output. This by itself would help the party as I can be on the front line drawing attacks, or Shield slamming melees away from our casters. But when you throw in Grapple, I can add "enemy caster shutdown" to my list of options.
But why Grapple exactly? It occurred to me, that with Greater Grapple, I can grapple as a move action. This leaves my Standard action free. So what to do with it? Well since I have this nice heavy powerful shield on my arm, why not smash the guy with it. Vital strike helps in that regard. Since I can only get off 1 attack a round anyway, why not make it 4d6, 6d6, or 8d6 instead of just 2d6? The -2 to hit is negligible since the target is hopefully pinned and suffering a healthy penalty to AC in addition to no Dex bonus. And once the grapple is established, the +5 to my checks overrides the fact that I'm taking a -4 for doing it 1-handed.
The problem is the initial grapple check. I could either attempt it with shield in hand at the -4 or I could try to get creative.
A Trip would give me enough bonus to counter the -4, but that only works if the target stays prone until my next turn...which I doubt he'll be complacent enough to do.
Instead, I could have the shield strapped to my arm but not "held" so I don't get the bonus from it, but now I have both hands free to grapple. Then in Round 2, spend my action changing the grapple to a pin, and then my move to gripping the shield and having it ready. That sets me up for bashing in rounds 3 onward.
Now the above starts me as a shield basher and moves me into grappling. As Gwen suggests, I could do this in reverse...focusing on Grapple to the point that I can now afford to attempt it 1-handed.
But keep in mind, the grappling option is not an "every fight" thing. It would have its uses, but I'm primarily thinking of this guy as a tank for the party with "shut down" as a backup in the situations it works for.
| Elbedor |
UPDATE:
My GM is House-Ruling that Grapple counts as part of the Fighter's Close, Monk, and Natural Weapon Training categories. So there's +4 there eventually (or +6 with Gloves of Dueling).
Some Feat combos I was thinking of using are:
Improved Unarmed Strike, Impr Grapple, Greater Grapple.
Improved Shield Bash, TWF, Shield Slam, Shield Master.
Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus.
Wpn Focus and Greater Wpn Focus (Grapple)
Wpn Focus and Greater Wpn Focus (Heavy Spiked Shield)
Wpn Spec and Greater Wpn Spec (Heavy Spiked Shield)
Vital Strike Line.
This leaves a few left for flavor such as Toughness, Dodge, improved Saves, etc.
I expect to top out around a 30 STR. So my CMB for Grapple is looking like:
20(BAB) + 10(STR) + 6(feats) + 6(Wpn Training) = 42 Base.
Other buffs and the -4 if I go 1-handed grapple adjust this accordingly.
Looking at how I want to build him, I'm really thinking he'll go as a tank/shield basher and then add in grapple as he goes. Maybe not the right way, but I prefer the RP flow of it in that direction.
Edit: And it might be possible to pull in some 3.5 items like grapple gloves to provide some temporary boosts. :)
Reynard_the_fox
|
It occurred to me, that with Greater Grapple, I can grapple as a move action.
Careful, there - Greater Grapple lets you maintain a grapple as a move action, not start one.
Here's what you do, I think: take the Quick Draw feat and use a Quick Draw Shield. You'll be able to take out or put away the shield as a free action - you can put it away for the grapple checks and take it back out for bashing with! The drawback is that only light shields can be quick draw, but honestly if I were you I would ditch Vital Strike anyway. A heavy spiked shield only gets 1d6 anyway, hardly worth spending all your feats and standard actions boosting.
Speaking of feats, see if your GM will let you take Rapid Grappler from Ultimate Combat. Once you reach BAB +9 you get ANOTHER grapple check as a swift action (as long as you use your move to grapple as well). Body Shield, also from UC, lets you redirect attacks to the one you're grappling as an immediate action, which is awesome. Alternately, Iron Will and Greater Iron Will will almost certainly save your butt someday.
| Elbedor |
Ah yes, I left it unstated, but I understand that Greater Grapple only comes into play once the grapple is started.
Also a heavy spiked shield is only 1d6, but when you add the Bashing enhancement, that jumps to 2d6 (1d4 - 1d6 - 1d8 - 2d6). That's why I figured the Vital Strike line was worth it, because that turned my attacks into 8d6 base damage.
If the GM accepts Rapid Grapple, then I can grapple as a swift and use my full attack on the target...making Vital Strike unnecessary.
Plus I DO like the concept of the QuickDraw Shield and Feat. Going Light drops the bash damage to 1d8 (spiked and Bashing), which also makes the Vital Strike line less attractive.
The question will be if he'll accept those. As mentioned we are Core only with anything else being added in case by case.
Iron Will and Improved will be very helpful due to poor Will saves.
| williamoak |
I tend to agree with pax rafkin... if you are CERTAIN that most of your enemies are NPCs (and not monsters), this could be a fun build (though you will have to sit out certain fights).
Otherwise, have fun. Dont forget the shield master feat (only comes online later but heh, it's a great feat). You might want to get an amulet of mighty fists (since it can boost your grapple) or permanencied greater magic fang.
Maneuver builds sound fun, but i've never seen them pan out. So all I can say is good luck!
| Elbedor |
Well he'd primarily be an AC tank for the party with some damage output through Shield Master bashing and Shield Slam bullrushing to keep melees off our casters. The grapple would come into play to shutdown enemy casters. So I'm not too worried about taking time to acquire those feats.
Does Amulet of Mighty Fists augment Grapple checks? I was under the impression that it didn't (although I'm aware of the debate on the board over this). I'm not familiar with any "official" ruling pertaining to this issue.