If I force you out of a square I threaten, do I get an AoO on you?


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

14 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

For example, if I cast Force Punch and knock you back 20 feet, do you provoke an AoO from me when you leave the square adjacent to me?

Does this apply to other forms of knockback?


I would say no - not unless the spell explicitly states that it causes the moved creature to provoke.

Rationale: The effect is similar to a bull rush maneuver; if you look over the feats related to it, you'll eventually come across Greater Bull Rush, which causes the target to provoke due to the forced movement. Without the feat - no provocation.


In general, forced movement does not provoke. If it does, then it says so, otherwise no.

Sovereign Court

What?

If the Bull Rush combat maneuver needs to explicitly state: "An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat" that implies that there is no special clause that prevents attacks of opportunity from movement that is inflicted upon a combatant.

Effects that ignore general rules explicitly state that as part of their text. There is no exception in the rules in the Combat Chapter of the book that states anything close to "forced movement does not cause a creature to provoke attacks of opportunity."

So the movement caused from Force Punch follows all normal rules. A creature leaving a threatened square provokes. Swing away.

There is some room for discussion if the spell should have that kind of text amended to it to prevent that kind of situation. Though for a 3rd level spell that allows a fort save to negate the movement it isn't an extremely powerful effect.

I've been nailed by GM's for a while for being awesome blow'ed away and hit again on the trip out for long enough to know that.


Morgen wrote:

What?

If the Bull Rush combat maneuver needs to explicitly state: "An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat" that implies that there is no special clause that prevents attacks of opportunity from movement that is inflicted upon a combatant.

Effects that ignore general rules explicitly state that as part of their text. There is no exception in the rules in the Combat Chapter of the book that states anything close to "forced movement does not cause a creature to provoke attacks of opportunity."

So the movement caused from Force Punch follows all normal rules. A creature leaving a threatened square provokes. Swing away.

There is some room for discussion if the spell should have that kind of text amended to it to prevent that kind of situation. Though for a 3rd level spell that allows a fort save to negate the movement it isn't an extremely powerful effect.

I've been nailed by GM's for a while for being awesome blow'ed away and hit again on the trip out for long enough to know that.

The problem with your logic is that there is then literally no reason for the Greater Bull Rush and Greater Reposition feats to explicitly call out that it causes the movement to provoke attacks of opportunity.

The Combat section states the following:

Combat - Provoking an Attack of Opportunity wrote:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action...

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

The existence of those feats makes it clear that forced movement is an exception to that general rule. It may not be in the best location in the book, but there's no other logical reason for the feats to be there if forced movement provokes normally.

[edit]
Another reason why forced movement logically does not provoke: First, here's the full section on provoking:

Attacks of Opportunity:
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

Notice that it consistently refers to the target of the AoO taking some action that triggers the AoO? In a forced movement situation, the target is not taking any action; he's being forced to move by someone else's action. Therefore, his movement doesn't meet the base criteria of provoking - the moved combatant is not taking an action that provokes, and in fact is not taking any action at all.

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus wrote:
The problem with your logic is that there is then literally no reason for the Greater Bull Rush and Greater Reposition feats to explicitly call out that it causes the movement to provoke attacks of opportunity.

(See below)

Xaratherus wrote:
The existence of those feats makes it clear that forced movement is an exception to that general rule. It may not be in the best location in the book, but there's no other logical reason for the feats to be there if forced movement provokes normally.

Except for that Bull Rush and Reposition specifically call out an exception to the "leaving a threatened square provokes" rule.


[edit]Oh, I follow what you're saying - the Bull Rush and Reposition maneuvers state they don't provoke.

Hrm, that throws a wrinkle into it. I have always assumed that the intention because of those exceptions was that forced movement did not provoke.

I still believe that logic is that you must provoke. You have to take an action that provokes; movement being forced on you in the fashion of Force Punch or similar is not you taking an action.


Yes, the default position is that leaving a threatened square provokes. The exceptions are called out. Then, of course, the exceptions to the exceptions are called out (i.e. greater bull rush)


FAQ'd. A cursory search shows dozens of threads on the subject with varying conclusions.


Xaratherus wrote:

[edit]Oh, I follow what you're saying - the Bull Rush and Reposition maneuvers state they don't provoke.

Hrm, that throws a wrinkle into it. I have always assumed that the intention because of those exceptions was that forced movement did not provoke.

I still believe that logic is that you must provoke. You have to take an action that provokes; movement being forced on you in the fashion of Force Punch or similar is not you taking an action.

I think that's just added re-inforcement. Forced movement doesn't provoke unless it says otherwise as youre not doing the moving.


blahpers wrote:
FAQ'd. A cursory search shows dozens of threads on the subject with varying conclusions.

Yup. This was my rationale for FAQing aswell. Personally speaking I'd definitely run with forced movement not provoking unless the specific form of forcing says different.

The line about about bull rush not provoking could easily be added re-inforcement as DrDeth says and this cannot be used as proof of RAW. It might indicate but it will never be proof, and in this case I don't even see it as a strong indication for either side of the arguement.


Yea, I think it is unclear.
In my games, I rule that it does provoke unless specified otherwise. This isn't based on any actual RAW, but is based on two things:
1. From an in-world perspective, if you are being forced to move, you aren't in a good position to defend yourself against attacks of opportunity.
2. From a meta-game/balance perspective, melee has plenty of disadvantages, and AoOs are a big part of balancing out melee vs ranged. Also, I like that it allows special attacks like bull rush to create tactical advantages.

I know people love arguing over whether game balance is important, or whether verisimilitude is important. I don't have a particularly strong opinion about either, but I consider both (and almost everything else) more important than RAW for a home game.

Of course, we are currently in the rules forum, but it seems like we're stuck and probably won't be able to figure out what RAW is for PFS purposes unless the PFDT weighs in (and unless someone goes and tracks down Skip Williams, we may never know what the Author's Meaning/RAI is).


I would say it does not. The general point of AoO is you are not focused on the person if you move away, unless it is all you concentrate on (full withdrawal) or you back away very slowly (5’ step). If you are pushed back by a spell, you can still be focused on your opponents.

You could argue, the force of the spell forces you to let your guard down, but in other situations where you are disadvantaged, like being knocked prone etc, stunned etc, you don’t provoke, so I don’t know why you would here.


Actions you take force AoO's. If you're not taking an action, you don't provoke (except in the case of certain feats/spells/effects that specifically work that way).


This came up recently in a game, and we concluded that in general, forced moves wouldn't provoke. And then I found an actual specific ruling on it, I thought, but of course now I can't find it.

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