While looking for an answer I came across the following thread but it was never confirmed. The last post in that thread is how I think it works. For those of you that don't want to read the thread :) here is how I interpret the rake rules.
What I am not questioning here is pounce, I am fully aware of how that works and is an exception to the rule of grappling and raking.
Rake is defined as follows (with bold word to support my point):
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
By RAW would this be allowed following a literal interpretation of the "must begin" its turn with a grapple?
Turn 1: Tiger pounces - Bite (grapple succeed), claw, claw, rake, rake
Turn 2: Turn starts in grapple - Rake, Rake. Drop grapple as free action. Bite (grapple succeed), claw, claw.
Turn 3-X: Repeat turn 2.
Is this the correct thinking? The rules never say anything about needing to maintain the grapple to rake, just that the turn needs to start in a grapple.
The way I picture this happening is the tiger starts turn 2 and rakes to get off the monster, then proceeds to do its full bite, claw, claw.
Yes, you can do this, but I find it kinda cheesy.
I agree it is quite cheesy, but I have guys in my group that do this all the time and I like to try and stop it with RAW rules. But in this case it would have to be a house rule.
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I would think that as part of the successful grapple check you could inflict bite damage (unless it really wanted to pin you? Can't see it tying you up, could move you I suppose). So it would get the bite as part of the grapple and the 2 free claw attacks as from the rake ability, or three claw attacks I suppose.
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I agree with Nefreet.
It would require a standard action to maintain the grapple and thence get the two free Rake attacks in addition to moving, pinning or damaging (with a bite). After that standard action you could use a free action to release the grapple, but then you only have a move action left.
So I guess the question is when you succeed a grapple and start your next turn are you considered to be in a grapple or do you immediately have to make a maintain grapple check?
The rules for rake simply state you have to start your turn in one, not maintain one. So I start my second turn already in a grapple and choose not to maintain. But since I started in a grapple the rake would still apply. Or because the rules also say "two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe" So when they say you have to start your turn with a grapple it sounds to me that you have to first maintain the grapple from turn 1.
I just wish it wouldn't say you must begin your turn already grappling. If you grapple in turn 1 and the monster doesn't escape during its turn you are automatically grappling at the start turn 2 at which time you choose if you want to maintain the grapple.
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While looking for an answer I came across the following thread but it was never confirmed. The last post in that thread is how I think it works. For those of you that don't want to read the thread :) here is how I interpret the rake rules.
What I am not questioning here is pounce, I am fully aware of how that works and is an exception to the rule of grappling and raking.
Rake is defined as follows (with bold word to support my point):
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.By RAW would this be allowed following a literal interpretation of the "must begin" its turn with a grapple?
Turn 1: Tiger pounces - Bite (grapple succeed), claw, claw, rake, rake
Turn 2: Turn starts in grapple - Rake, Rake. Drop grapple as free action. Bite (grapple succeed), claw, claw.
Turn 3-X: Repeat turn 2.Is this the correct thinking? The rules never say anything about needing to maintain the grapple to rake, just that the turn needs to start in a grapple.
The way I picture this happening is the tiger starts turn 2 and rakes to get off the monster, then proceeds to do its full bite, claw, claw.
"Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks."
If you notice in the Bolded area, it strictly states you cannot grapple and rake on the same turn. That should answer your question for the most part.
Turn 1: You could move up to them initially and grapple and hopefully succeeding - Your turn would then end.
Turn 2: On the next turn, assuming they didn't break your grapple with Str, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or some other ability, you could indeed use your Rake on them since you have began the turn grappling. You have to make your grapple check(following the standard grapple rules) after the Rake to see if you still continue to grapple after the Rake/Rake. Then you would follow the standard grapple rules.
Everytime you start your turn grappling your foe, you just get two free Rakes on them. That's really all this ability does and that's it's only purpose.
You're leaving out the caveat of, "In addition to the options available to all grapplers", though.
That is the key I was looking for. That I kept reading over. Thanks.
Why would Paizo go through the trouble of writing the extra fluff when all the options available to a grappler can only be done after maintaining the grapple?
Well, I do believe Raijin just slam dunked that argument.
Turn 1: You could move up to them initially and grapple and hopefully succeeding - Your turn would then end.
Turn 2: On the next turn, assuming they didn't break your grapple with Str, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or some other ability, you could indeed use your Rake on them since you have began the turn grappling. You have to make your grapple check(following the standard grapple rules) after the Rake to see if you still continue to grapple after the Rake/Rake. Then you would follow the standard grapple rules.
The problem here is Turn 2, you say it does a rake then has to make a check. That supports the argument that you can rake, then drop the grapple and then take a full attack.
But rather you have to make the maintain grapple check first then you can rake.
I disagree that you can Rake w/out first successfully maintaining the grapple. Agreed there should be no question that you have to maintain the grapple that turn in order to Rake.
Allowing it the other way around means you could kill the target with rakes before maintaining the grapple, thus invalidating the grapple (becomes a held/touched object). Would you be left with a full-round action, just a move? The maintain must come first.
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Turn 1: You could move up to them initially and grapple and hopefully succeeding - Your turn would then end.
Turn 2: On the next turn, assuming they didn't break your grapple with Str, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or some other ability, you could indeed use your Rake on them since you have began the turn grappling. You have to make your grapple check(following the standard grapple rules) after the Rake to see if you still continue to grapple after the Rake/Rake. Then you would follow the standard grapple rules.The problem here is Turn 2, you say it does a rake then has to make a check. That supports the argument that you can rake, then drop the grapple and then take a full attack.
But rather you have to make the maintain grapple check first then you can rake.
I may have mixed the order up. My apologies. I'm not super keen on grapple rules, i just know the general of how they work. You might have to make the grapple check first to sustain the grapple.
I may have mixed the order up. My apologies. I'm not super keen on grapple rules, i just know the general of how they work. You might have to make the grapple check first to sustain the grapple.Turn 1: You could move up to them initially and grapple and hopefully succeeding - Your turn would then end.
Turn 2: On the next turn, assuming they didn't break your grapple with Str, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or some other ability, you could indeed use your Rake on them since you have began the turn grappling. You have to make your grapple check(following the standard grapple rules) after the Rake to see if you still continue to grapple after the Rake/Rake. Then you would follow the standard grapple rules.The problem here is Turn 2, you say it does a rake then has to make a check. That supports the argument that you can rake, then drop the grapple and then take a full attack.
But rather you have to make the maintain grapple check first then you can rake.
No worries, it is Monday after all. Thanks every one for clearing this up. My local munchkin will be disappointed next gaming session :) I'm sure he will find something else however.
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No worries, it is Monday after all. Thanks every one for clearing this up. My local munchkin will be disappointed next gaming session :) I'm sure he will find something else however.
I generally find it best to email the munchkins ahead of time (as neutrally as possible), and let them know so it doesn't devolve into an argument during game, or hurt feelings.
What about pounce? Doesn't it looks like this? Tiger is charging and it does pounce that means two claws and a rake(another two claws) and a bite - and if bite hits it's free action to grab. Then on next turn it will start with rake (two claws).
Pounce is the exception to the rule. So a full two turns would look like this:
Turn 1: Pounce - Bite (grapple chance), Claw (grapple chance), Claw (grapple chance), Rake, Rake.
Turn 2: (Assuming you got a grapple in turn 1 with the bite)Check to maintain grapple if yes bite, Rake, Rake
Turn 3-x: Repeat 2 until baddy is dead.
I don't see how that can happen Ignipotens, when the rules that Raijin quoted specifically state that you are forbidden from Starting a grapple and making rake attacks in the same round.
I don't see how that can happen Ignipotens, when the rules that Raijin quoted specifically state that you are forbidden from Starting a grapple and making rake attacks in the same round.
Turn 1 is using the Pounce ability which is an exception to the grapple rule.
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Awww I see, so there is a specific rule to counter the specific rule that counters the general rule..... lol well that's bizarre.
Awww I see, so there is a specific rule to counter the specific rule that counters the general rule..... lol well that's bizarre.
Lol, yea that is why I got confused at first.