Can a watersinger (undine bard archetype) also be a detective or songhealer?


Rules Questions


Guides seem to indicate no. Am I missing something or are they?

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insaneogeddon wrote:


Guides seem to indicate no. Am I missing something or are they?

They both alter Bardic Performance, so based on the Crossblooded/Wildblooded FAQ you may find GM's that don't allow it.


Bardic Performances are all separate abilities, and I have absolutely no idea what Crossblooded/Wildblooded would have to do with it whatsoever.

Watersinger changes Fascinate, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, Inspire Competence, and the level 5 Loremaster.

Detective changes Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, Bardic Knowledge, Well-Versed, and Versatile Performance.

Songhealer changes Versatile Performance, Frightening Tune, and Deadly Performance.

You can be a Watersinger/Detective or a Watersinger/Songhealer, but you can't be both, since both alter Versatile Performance.

However, you should not do this. Watersinger is fairly awesome, but Detective is just flat out awful and Songhealer is not really worth giving up Versatile Performance.


But they alter different types of bardic performance.?.

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mplindustries wrote:
Bardic Performances are all separate abilities, and I have absolutely no idea what Crossblooded/Wildblooded would have to do with it whatsoever.

Bloodline is the class ability the same as Bardic Performance is the class ability.

If your GM calls each individual Bardic Performance type (like Suggestion) a separate ability, then Watersinger/Detective and Watersinger/Songhealer work.

If they don't, then they don't stack.


Ahhh! Yup !


James Risner wrote:
Bloodline is the class ability the same as Bardic Performance is the class ability.

No, Bloodline Arcana, Bloodline Powers, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline feats are all separate class features. The reason they don't stack is because Crossblooded alters each one (especially Arcana, by giving you two arcana).

James Risner wrote:

If your GM calls each individual Bardic Performance type (like Suggestion) a separate ability, then Watersinger/Detective and Watersinger/Songhealer work.

If they don't, then they don't stack.

That's fair, but if your GM calls them all one feature, then your GM is houseruling :P

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

wasn't there a FAQ about bardic performances being treated separately for archetypes?

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Seraphimpunk wrote:
wasn't there a FAQ about bardic performances being treated separately for archetypes?

I don't know of one, but it certainly would be applicable to this question ;-)

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

maybe i'm remembering this JJ post

James Jacobs wrote:

Individual performance types are separate class features, but Bardic Performance is also a class feature.

You can have an archetype swap out specific performances, or you can have one swap out the entire thing. Depends on the archetype.

And yes, if you have two archetypes that modify different performances but don't overlap, you can indeed take both archetypes, provided that the two archetypes aren't oppositional in some flavor way that makes the GM unhappy to see them mixed.

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Seraphimpunk wrote:
maybe i'm remembering this JJ post

Good enough for me.


Now the question is can you use Watersong (Su) to open locks or disable devices at range using tools made from water?

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