Is it true that at first level, a Zen Archer cannot buy any weapon with which he can flurry? Max monk starting gold seems to be 60gp. Short bow costs 75 gp.
Do most GMs simply assume that the archer starts off with a normal shortbow? Similar to how Gunslingers start off with a gun?
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Composite shortbow costs 75g. A standard, non-composite shortbow costs 30g.
No, most GMs don't automatically give out gear due to character concept, if you have a character who is in need of better starting funds there are traits that will help out.
Composite shortbow costs 75g. A standard, non-composite shortbow costs 30g.
True... Monks still start out with an average of 10 gp.
I guess it would be OP to have an Zen Archer with a shortbow at first level?
No, most GMs don't automatically give out gear due to character concept, if you have a character who is in need of better starting funds there are traits that will help out.
Fair, but the Zen Archer is an archetype, and it seems unable to do it's thing without a bow. Is 't depriving it of a bow just like depriving a gunslinger of a gun, or a wizard of a spellbook?
You don't really need a Composite Bow at 1st level.
Marginal difference in range increment, but the main difference is for STR bonus to DMG,
for which you would also have to pay further amounts per additional +1 which is not affordable for most characters at 1st.
Might as well save money by not getting a zero STR rating Composite Bow and selling it for half price later,
and just use a cheap regular one until you can afford a Composite Bow with your full STR rating, and get Masterwork on top at the same time.
(I think you can afford a +2 rated composite bow made from greenwood with a 600gp value Prestige Point purchase in PFS)
With the saved cost, you may very well be able to afford MW arrows, perhaps of several types (Bludgeoning, etc) right at level 1:
extra +1 to-hit at the swingiest level!
What are your stats?
Optimizing wise, a full Zen Archer probably eventually wants WIS and STR as primary stats
(ranged and melee attack and dmg, ki, AC), doesn't really need DEX, but decent CON is nice.
But they don't get WIS to Ranged until later, meaning until that point they would use DEX for Ranged,
even though that investment isn't useful offensively once they get WIS to DEX, so STR based melee might be common until Level 3 WIS->Ranged.
(or vice versa, they would not actually use WIS to DEX if their DEX score is higher)
The alternative is high WIS and DEX not leaving much for CON or STR (damage).
(WIS/DEX eventually overlap for Ranged attack, wasting some benefit, but stronger in AC department and Initiative, Acrobatics, etc)
So what is your stat build?
If you don't have significant STR, it doesn't even matter if you have a Composite Bow at low levels.
Even if you do, it's mostly unfeasible to afford actual STR ratings off the bat, so just use a regular bow at first.
In PFS everyone starts out with 150gp, and your first mission nets at least 400gp.
Make a Zen Archer for PFS!
For real? Did not know this. I guess there it makes a lot of sense... Bit is that fair? Isn't there a good reason for the different starting gold amounts?
yeah, the hell? Where was I getting 10 GP from? Brain fart. My bad.
No, most GMs don't automatically give out gear due to character concept, if you have a character who is in need of better starting funds there are traits that will help out.I do. I give a flat amount of gold dependent on BAB. 100 for low, 200 for medium, 300 for full.
Which would make you an exception to the "most" mentioned, good for your players.
Which would make you an exception to the "most" mentioned, good for your players.No, most GMs don't automatically give out gear due to character concept, if you have a character who is in need of better starting funds there are traits that will help out.I do. I give a flat amount of gold dependent on BAB. 100 for low, 200 for medium, 300 for full.
Why you jipping the casters? They got magic, they should have been able to earn some scrolls or potions n whatnot, no?
/shrug
I don't really care what people do in their home games... but, do you have an actual reason? Or is it just cuz?
No, most GMs don't automatically give out gear due to character concept, if you have a character who is in need of better starting funds there are traits that will help out.
I think this is less "gear for character concept" (which to me would be like "My character is a farmer, can I have a herd of 10 sheep?") and more "Gear for character function".
Why you jipping the casters? They got magic, they should have been able to earn some scrolls or potions n whatnot, no?
/shrug
I don't really care what people do in their home games... but, do you have an actual reason? Or is it just cuz?
I can find the reason in your own post.
They got magic
=)
No, most GMs don't automatically give out gear due to character concept, if you have a character who is in need of better starting funds there are traits that will help out.I think this is less "gear for character concept" (which to me would be like "My character is a farmer, can I have a herd of 10 sheep?") and more "Gear for character function".
Why you jipping the casters? They got magic, they should have been able to earn some scrolls or potions n whatnot, no?
/shrug
I don't really care what people do in their home games... but, do you have an actual reason? Or is it just cuz?
I can find the reason in your own post.
They got magic=)
So, in your mind, having magic means poorer characters? How does being able to cast spell have a negative impact on someone's ability to make money?
You are saying, that "Because they have magic" they "should have less money"?
This strikes me as absurd...
So, in your mind, having magic means poorer characters? How does being able to cast spell have a negative impact on someone's ability to make money?You are saying, that "Because they have magic" they "should have less money"?
This strikes me as absurd...
Arcane casters don't need as much gear as other characters. They can roll with a spell component pouch plus a spellbook, buck naked, and be at maximum effectiveness at level 1. Everything else is just gravy. They don't need/can't use a lot of the more expensive items (armor, mostly), so don't need nearly as much cash.
Any class expected to mix it up in combat needs a weapon and some armor. These things cost a good deal of money, and are what eat up the majority of the Fighter's budget (hence why in Core he gets more wealth at 1st level than the Wizard). Likewise, the Cleric and other 3/4 BaB full and half casters get a bit more.
So, in your mind, having magic means poorer characters? How does being able to cast spell have a negative impact on someone's ability to make money?You are saying, that "Because they have magic" they "should have less money"?
This strikes me as absurd...
Arcane casters don't need as much gear as other characters. They can roll with a spell component pouch plus a spellbook, buck naked, and be at maximum effectiveness at level 1. Everything else is just gravy. They don't need/can't use a lot of the more expensive items (armor, mostly), so don't need nearly as much cash.
Any class expected to mix it up in combat needs a weapon and some armor. These things cost a good deal of money, and are what eat up the majority of the Fighter's budget (hence why in Core he gets more wealth at 1st level than the Wizard). Likewise, the Cleric and other 3/4 BaB full and half casters get a bit more.
You clearly haven't played many level 1 wizards... Spellcasting in combat lasts a whole round. Then, you propose they.. what? Throw their spellbook at an enemy?
Aside from the fact that 'being buck naked with just a spellbook and pouch and means they're at maximum effectiveness' is patently false...
It still doesn't 'make sense' in terms of 'non-metagaming' thinking, to expect all 1st level arcanists/casters to be inherently poorer than 1st level fighters.
But, I digress.
Your games, do as ya please.
You clearly haven't played many level 1 wizards... Spellcasting in combat lasts a whole round. Then, you propose they.. what? Throw their spellbook at an enemy?
Buy a crossbow with the other 95 gold they have from only needing to spend 5 of it to get their class features working (a Spell Component Pouch).
Or use Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Daze, etc.
It still doesn't 'make sense' in terms of 'non-metagaming' thinking, to expect all 1st level arcanists/casters to be inherently poorer than 1st level fighters.
But, I digress.
Your games, do as ya please.
Not just my game. Maybe it's been a while since you've looked at the official Paizo starting gold tables for certain classes.
1/2 BaB classes:
Sorcerer: 2d6 × 10 gp (average 70 gp.)
Wizard: 2d6 × 10 gp (average 70 gp.)
Witch: 3d6 × 10 gp (average 105gp.)
3/4 BaB classes:
Cleric: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.)
Magus: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.)
Rogue: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.)
Full BaB classes:
Fighter: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp.)
Barbarian: 3d6 × 10 gp (average 105gp.)
Paladin: 5d6 × 10 gp (average 175 gp.)
Ranger (since Barbarian's an outlier here): 5d6 × 10 gp (average 175 gp.)
You'll notice, nobody was "gypped". EVERYBODY (except Witch, who lost a whopping 5 gp) gained from the 100/200/300 method.
Not just my game. Maybe it's been a while since you've looked at the official Paizo starting gold tables for certain classes.
No, it hasn't been very long at all. Like I said, I don't care that much. Your game, do what ya want. You keep triggering my ocd-like responses though.
How? Well, you cherry picked the classes that best fall in line, and ignored the outliers. In my line of work, we call that fraud. But this is just a game, so I wouldn't go so far... it is irksome though.
You could give 1/2 bab classes all 500 gold to start, and of course you could then say they 'gained' from that. But if you give everyone else 100k gold... did they 'really' gain? Of course that example is a silly exaggeration, but it was supposed to be.
The only real factor in these decisions that 'actually' matters interparty balancing. And you 'can' do whatever you want in your games, but just because you 'feel' that some classes don't need or shouldn’t have equitable funds doesn't 'actually' make it true.
Nor does it even 'make sense' for 1/2 bab classes to, for some mysterious reason, be unable to make any money like full bab classes somehow can...
I've contended 2 points here. 1, That you are wrong in that 1/2 bab classes don’t need funding to be fully effective. And 2, that story/realism/common sense it doesn't make sense for 1/2 bab classes to be mysteriously always poorer.
If you don't have something to say to those two points, just ignore me and carry on. I really won't mind.
If character decides they really really need money, they take the trait. Thats my "just cuz." We generally run a RAW game (depends on who is GMing), there is a way to get more than what the basic starting funds say, its in the rules.
If you feel like they should have more money "just cuz" go for it. Like you said, have fun with your home game. The rules account for certain people wanting more, even give them an option for getting it, I see no reason to house rule it "just cuz."
How? Well, you cherry picked the classes that best fall in line, and ignored the outliers. In my line of work, we call that fraud. But this is just a game, so I wouldn't go so far... it is irksome though.
No cherry picking, I just picked random classes from the list. You'll notice that there IS one outlier there (the Witch, and the Barbarian actually sort of counts).
I can look over the rest if you like.
1/2 BaB classes:
...Well there aren't any more of these.
3/4 BaB classes:
Bards, Alchemists, Oracles, and Summoners have 105 gp, which seems to be the default average for a class that isn't going to wear Heavy Armor.
Druids and Summoners have 70 apiece, likely because they also require little to function (especially the Summoner, who is generally played as "Eidolon with a Summoner companion"). They fall in line with the 1/2 BaB classes because of that.
Monks and Inquisitors are the true outlier here, with Inquisitors having a whopping 140 (almost as many as the Fighter and Paladin) with Monk, as the thread's topic suggests, has much less.
Other than that, you're left with the Cavalier and Gunslinger, both of which have 175.
You could give 1/2 bab classes all 500 gold to start, and of course you could then say they 'gained' from that. But if you give everyone else 100k gold... did they 'really' gain? Of course that example is a silly exaggeration, but it was supposed to be.
Then why do it? Silly exaggerations don't prove much here.
The only real factor in these decisions that 'actually' matters interparty balancing. And you 'can' do whatever you want in your games, but just because you 'feel' that some classes don't need or shouldn’t have equitable funds doesn't 'actually' make it true.
So what is your counter here? Saying I'm wrong doesn't prove or disprove anything at all.
Full arcane casters don't need armor, that's the majority of funds allocation for the other classes, which is why they get more.
All other gear can easily be bought with the remainder. You get clothes for free, and your spell component pouch is 5 gp. That leaves you 70 (or 95 gold with the houserule you're arguing about) to buy everything else you need...which is roughly the same amount the other classes have after buying armor.
Nor does it even 'make sense' for 1/2 bab classes to, for some mysterious reason, be unable to make any money like full bab classes somehow can...
I've contended 2 points here. 1, That you are wrong in that 1/2 bab classes don’t need funding to be fully effective.
Which you have said nothing to disprove more sophisticated than "Nuh-uh" so I can safely ignore that.
And 2, that story/realism/common sense it doesn't make sense for 1/2 bab classes to be mysteriously always poorer.
"Always"? No.
At 1st level? Yes.
They start with a spellbook full of cantrips and likely 7 first level spells, you know. That costs a lot of money.
How much, let's see...
Cantrips cost 5 gold a pop.
1st level spells cost 10 gold a pop.
He needs to add 28 cantrips and 4 1st level spells (we'll be nice and say he gets the 3 before Int mod for free, kinda like leveling but with an extra).
That's a grand total of 180 gp...before the 70 gp he gets at 1st level anyway.
You're right, that is mighty unfair. He shouldn't get ANY gold at 1st level. He has even more than the Fighter does!
What about some ranks in craft bows, or profession fletching? Make your own bow...
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As I seemed to have started a pretty intense conversation between Remy and Rynjin my reasoning is exactly that the 1/2 BAB classes are all full casters who rely little on equipment, that the 3/4 BAB are generally expected to contribute physically to combat and so need money armour or weapons and the full BAB classes need good armour, good weapons and might need to buy a scroll or potion for a caster to use to prop them up without being a burden on the casters limited spell slots at low levels. If players have, scribe scroll then they get scrolls at half price from their starting wealth if they know the spell. That means most wizards in my group tend to have about 6 scrolls - hardly 'jipped'.
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It still doesn't 'make sense' in terms of 'non-metagaming' thinking, to expect all 1st level arcanists/casters to be inherently poorer than 1st level fighters.
Why give arcane 1/2BAB casters less cash? Because in their arcane studies they have spent much money on getting spellbooks to study and paying travel/entrance to museums with ancient tomes to study.
Or (for sorcerers) they have spent money on whims being spontaneous and random in nature, and have a harder time to hold on to money then some. Or (for a couple of builds) they left their home to adventure in shame and they could only leave with what small money they could get/steal from their parents/guardians. See? Non-metagaming reasons.
Likewise, with monks, with the least average gold, they have endured years of monastic training that has trained them to rely on the bare minimum needed to get by, so they didn't have many luxuries such as money or fancy equipment, and the little gold they have when they start adventuring.
Now, to the OP, you only really need your weapon and basic kit at first level as a monk anyway. Put ranks in an appropriate proffesion to get extra cash to start with and get the monk's kit and a shortbow.