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Can an Oracle of Flame still cast spells while in Form of Flame? Can they still use weapons?
What about Life Oracle's Energy Body? The wording is a bit different from Form of Flame. Can I cast/ use weapons in that form?
As elementals can speak (at least those I know of can speak their elemental tongue) you can still cast spells using verbal components. But as your gear melds with you material components and focuses are a problem.
If you can use a weapon depends on GM fiat but you would have to drop them prior to changing shape or they would meld with your body, too.
Okay but the thing is that your type does not remain the same in the case of Energy Body. And regardless of type change, your form changes to that of one of an elemental.
Since oracles are divine casters and also dont need to provide DF, I guess I'm pretty much sold that they can cast in elemental form, provided they can provide somatic components, which is the catch. Somatic components say:
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
elementals, arguably, do not have hands. Sure, they may be able to shift their form to *appear* to have hands, but they do not have hands. They have slam attacks, not claw attacks or weapon attacks. I was talking last weekend to a guy who seems to know a lot about PF and does a ton with PFS, I asked him a similar question (though granted, as it came up in conversation it's not like he researched it extensively), his reaction was (I'm paraphrasing):
"Even though the Elemental's physical form is fluid, you can't use that in order to gain advantages that are specific to a form. Otherwise, everybody would be a fire Elemental octopus and get 8 flaming tentacle attacks. Having hands that can grip and cast spells is a feature of the humanoid form, therefore, you can't do these things while in an Elemental form."
I couldn't come up with a compelling counter to this argument.
An elemental is a solid being. It may be an embodiment of its element but it can still be stabbed, bull rushed, grappled, etc. (unless it otherwise states in the creature type that it is effectively incorporeal and cannot be grappled, etc.)
With that in mind, an elemental whose form is humanoid could hold weapons without issue. Someone who changes into an elemental couldn't draw his own weapons after changing, since they would meld into his body. Same with spell components - the best bet would probably be to drop any items that you would want to use after the change, then use the ability and pick them up using your move action.
I want to believe you, but again, to play devil's advocate here.
I turn into an elemental. My Elemental form is an eagle. Does this allow me to fly? Don't be ridiculous, of course not. So why should my elemental form being roughly humanoid allow me to wield weapons and cast spells? These are effects that are dependent on form, which an elemental does not have.
I want to believe you, but again, to play devil's advocate here.
I turn into an elemental. My Elemental form is an eagle. Does this allow me to fly? Don't be ridiculous, of course not. So why should my elemental form being roughly humanoid allow me to wield weapons and cast spells? These are effects that are dependent on form, which an elemental does not have.
If we are talking about turning into an element in general, then actually, yes, the form can grant you the ability to fly. Taking the form of an air elemental using Elemental Body grants you a fly speed.
If we're talking about Form of Flame specifically, it functions as Elemental Body I, so you would look at that spell's entry for how turning into a flame elemental functions:
Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.
So that's all you gain - no more and no less. So you're correct that if the form you took was an eagle, it wouldn't grant flight just because a normal eagle can fly.
Now let's look at the ecology description of a fire elemental:
A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it or the water is covered with a flammable material (such as a layer of oil).
Fire elementals vary in appearance—they usually manifest as coiling serpentine forms made of smoke and flame, but some fire elementals take on shapes more akin to humans, demons, or other monsters in order to increase the terror of their sudden appearance. Features on a fire elemental's body are made by darker bits of flame or patches of semi-stable smoke, ash, and cinders.
A small fire elemental is 4 feet long and weighs 2 pounds
So if the caster chooses to change into a serpentine form of flame, then he couldn't use weapons (he gains no additional benefits from taking that form outside of what Elemental Body grants) - but if he instead changed into a humanoid form, it could wield weapons.
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Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.So that's all you gain - no more and no less. So you're correct that if the form you took was an eagle, it wouldn't grant flight just because a normal eagle can fly.
...
So if the caster chooses to change into a serpentine form of flame, then he couldn't use weapons (he gains no additional benefits from taking that form outside of what Elemental Body grants) - but if he instead changed into a humanoid form, it could wield weapons.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Why would a humanoid form get to cast and use weapons -just because it is humanoid? The serpentine form doesn't get to constrict -just because it is serpentine. You shouldn't get to use weapons and cast spells just because a normal humanoid can use weapons.
If we're talking about Form of Flame specifically, it functions as Elemental Body I, so you would look at that spell's entry for how turning into a flame elemental functions:
Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.So that's all you gain - no more and no less.
That is not all that the spell does - it also uses all the rules of the Polymorph subschool. That includes all these quotes:
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature.Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. ... While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
These seem relevant.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Why would a humanoid form get to cast and use weapons -just because it is humanoid? The serpentine form doesn't get to constrict -just because it is serpentine. You shouldn't get to use weapons and cast spells just because a normal humanoid can use weapons.
I mentioned the 'why' above. It's because of how transmutation (polymorph) effects function.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes), changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Emphasis mine.
Polymorph effects specifically let you retain the ability to cast spells as long as the form you take would logically allow you to speak and\or make the proper motions. I would also argue that if you have the forethought to drop your spell component pouch before you change, then you could pick it back up afterward and cast spells that have material components as well, but that's not technically RAW.
The other abilities that you explicitly lose are extraordinary and supernatural abilities that are based primarily on form. Wielding a weapon isn't an Ex or an Su; it's an ability that is based solely on form - if you have hands and are not incorporeal, you can hold a weapon.
So that's all you gain - no more and no less.That is not all that the spell does - it also uses all the rules of the Polymorph subschool. That includes all these quotes:
Thus why I said 'gain' - I didn't imply that those were the only changes, only that those were the specific things that you were granted by the new form.
Those quotes are pertinent to things that you might lose based on the form you take. The remainder of the transmutation (polymorph) school description makes clear that while you can lose stuff based on form, you only gain things based on the form if the ability you use to transform specifically says you do.
I'm aware of the relevant piece of text (that you both quoted, and bolded, lol). My concern is that an Elemental does not have the capability to make such movements.
A fire elemental is a fire elemental, is a fire elemental, regardless of how it appears right? There ought to be no meaningful difference between a fire elemental that looks like an eagle, a fire elemental that looks like a snake, and a fire elemental that looks like a humanoid.
It is pretty simple really.
Polymorph says that material components are gone, so you need eschew materials, or you need to cast a spell with no material components to get around that.
Elementals have a languages and thus are capable of speech. Anything with a verbal component good.
That only leaves soematic components. Now, do you have anything that says that an elemental form isn't able to do soematic components? Since they can be vaguely humanoid in shape, I cannot think of any good reason they cannot do hand/arm/leg/etc. gestures.
That only leaves soematic components. Now, do you have anything that says that an elemental form isn't able to do soematic components?
That's why I started the topic in the first place. I don't know. I'm asking you guys.
Since they can be vaguely humanoid in shape, I cannot think of any good reason they cannot do hand/arm/leg/etc. gestures.
What is clear to me is that THIS logic does not hold. I don't know how to explain it that I haven't said already. There should be -ZERO- mechanical difference between:
"I use Form of Flame to take the shape of a Fire Elemental with the appearance of a snake."
and
"I use Form of Flame to take the shape of a Fire Elemental with the appearance of a human."
But if one can cast spells and the other can't, there is a HUGE mechanical difference. Does that not strike anybody else as being completely wrong?
Elemental subtype:
• Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are
proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
There is a precedent there for elementals with humanoid form being able to do things that other elementals can't.
That only leaves soematic components. Now, do you have anything that says that an elemental form isn't able to do soematic components?That's why I started the topic in the first place. I don't know. I'm asking you guys.
Since they can be vaguely humanoid in shape, I cannot think of any good reason they cannot do hand/arm/leg/etc. gestures.What is clear to me is that THIS logic does not hold. I don't know how to explain it that I haven't said already. There should be -ZERO- mechanical difference between:
"I use Form of Flame to take the shape of a Fire Elemental with the appearance of a snake."
and
"I use Form of Flame to take the shape of a Fire Elemental with the appearance of a human."But if one can cast spells and the other can't, there is a HUGE mechanical difference. Does that not strike anybody else as being completely wrong?
No, it doens't strike me as wrong at all. You're assuming that there should be zero mechanical difference between forms - which is a faulty assumption.
Let's say that you're a human spellcaster. One day, a creature comes along and cuts off both your arms and your legs (but somehow you live - a la Monty Python's Black Knight). Your form (shape) has now changed; you are no longer a bipedal creature with two arms - you're simply a torso. The GM could rightfully rule that you can no longer perform spells that require somatic components.
So form does have some logical mechanical effects.
A polymorph effect only grants you the abilities the effect specifically outlines, but it also only removes certain abilities that you already had - in this case, based on form. If the form you assume is similar to the one you left, you don't lose those abilities.
if you actually READ my first and second post, you would understand that your type is ELEMENTAL when you are using Energy Body from the Life Oracle.
In this form, you gain the elemental subtype (but not type) and give off a warm, welcoming light...
This means you're a Humanoid with the Elemental Subtype, not Type.