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Just wanna sanity-check a thing:
SLAs have no components. Therefore, they do not have expensive material components.
If you are creating a magic item which casts a spell, and it has material components, you have to pay some cost related to those. Scribing a scroll requires you to pay the cost of the material component, for instance.
SLAs qualify as prerequisites for anything that the corresponding spell qualifies for.
Does that mean that, if you have a SLA of something that usually has an expensive material component, you can create an item which casts it without using the component? It seems like it does, because you need to provide any components you need to cast the spell; if you don't need a component to cast the spell, you are probably off the hook.
Whereupon we find that the world's wealth is controlled by any race that can get permanency as a SLA.
Where did you find the rule that says that SLAs qualify as prerequisite for anything the the corresponding spell qualifies for?
According to the FAQ/Errata on the pfsrd for spell-like abilities it specifically states that it doesn't qualify you to use spell trigger and completion items. It also sates that SLAs aren't actually spells.
Unless you can find a specific quote from rules that states that having an SLA means you can create magic items with the spell equivalent as requirement then I think your theory is busted.
EDIT: BAHHHH I actually found the place that specifically states that SLAs qualify as a requirement for creating magic items. I guess technically speaking you are correct that by RAW you could bust world economy by having an SLA with an expensive material component and a relevant item creation feat. That said it is an obvious oversight and as such RAI will contradict you.
Oh, interesting. I had been informed that they qualified as prereqs for feats and classes.
We do get:
faq wrote: Item Creation Feats: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?
Yes.
faq wrote: Spell-Like Abilities and Item Crafting: Can I use a spell-like ability for an item's spell requirement?
Yes. Core Rulebook page 461, Requirements section, paragraph 2 says, "A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect."
For example, a demon with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and who has fireball as a spell-like ability can craft a +1 flaming sword, which has fireball as a prerequisite.
faq wrote: Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
faq wrote: Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
So while spell trigger/spell completion items aren't available, item creation explicitly is listed in the FAQ, and apparently in the rules themselves. Oddly, the same text about spell-trigger items or SLAs isn't present in the creation rules, but it's in the rules describing the requirements.
Yup. I added an addendum to my post after I found out that it does qualify you for it.
That said... That is why we have DMs who can smack you around for even suggesting it :D
Well, the interesting question is whether you still need the cost anyway.
Imagine that you have a level 1 spell with a material component which costs money. To craft a wand of it, you have to have access to the spell, and arrange for it to be expended once, and you have to provide 50x the material component cost, one per charge.
Now say instead you want to do a level 4 spell. The wand will take 21 days to craft. During those 21 days, you "expend" the spell. But you still provide exactly 50x the material component cost.
Which suggests that the cost you're paying for material components is unrelated to how often you "cast" the spell, and thus maybe doesn't depend on whether you have to spend material components to cast it. Similarly, it's not obvious whether blood money would work for these purposes.
And there's clearly prior art for creatures having SLAs of spells with expensive material components; many genies can grant wish, which is basically a SLA but doesn't cost them 25k gold per casting.
Although there's an additional complexity in the case where the material component cost is non-fixed. What's it cost to make a scroll of simulacrum? How about permanency?
So it's not clear to me whether the spell component costs are affected by using a SLA instead of a spell.
Indications doesn't change RAW. Indications can show what RAI is meant to be but we were never in doubt about RAI because the sane intention is of course that you still have to pay the expensive mats cost when creating a magic item.
I do have doubts about RAW because although I have read all the rules at one point it doesn't mean I remember them word for word so there might be a place that contradict the original theory and the FAQ might already adress the issue.
I've marked for FAQ
I think that what matter is on what spell is based the effect of the item, not if you are using a SLA or not.
If you are making a wand of stoneskin you need to memorize 1 stoneskin for each day you will work on the wand and that memorized spell is used up in the creation process.
Typically you would have to work 21 days making that wand, but you still have to pay for 50 casting of the spell, not 24.
So it seem that using a SLA or a spell or how many spell you use is not what make the difference. What matter is the what spell effect the item will produce.
Okay, thought experiment. Imagine that you have a wand containing a spell with an expensive material component. And you want to use that to fulfil the requirement.
PRD wrote: For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. This suggests that if, for some insane reason, you were using a spell trigger item to provide the spells, the number of charges you'd use (which all presumably had a material component cost paid in) varies with days spent crafting. *thinks* Soooo... That sort of implies that the material component cost isn't from "casting the spell", but is inherent to the creation of the item.
But!
Imagine that you want to create an item which uses scrying. Do you need to have the 1,000gp mirror available? You do if you're an arcane caster, but not if you're a divine caster, because the focus is arcane-only. Similarly, some spells require a divine focus only for divine casters, but not for wizards. So the version of the spell you cast can influence whether you need a focus or not. But, apparently, not whether you need a material component. And you don't use up material components from "expending" the spell every day you work on the item.
I guess the first question should be:
Can anyone think of an example of a spell where whether or not it has a material component varies in some likely way? Like, clerics do, wizards don't, or something like that? Because that would be a first test case.
It would seem pretty weird if the answer were that, for some such hypothetical spell, the cost of creating a wand would vary hugely depending on whether your class needs a material component, but not be affected by the use of the SLA to meet the requirement.
But wait.
Can an SLA be used as satisfying the spell requirement for making a speed completion or spell trigger item? Those requirements are more stringent than the requirements for making other things....
Otherwise, you could read those FAQs as saying you could also use a spell trigger device as satisfying the requirement for making another spell trigger device.... IE: using a wand of fireballs to satisfy the requirement to making another wand of fireballs.
Well, maybe you could. And if you can accelerate crafting enough, you might even be able to come out "ahead" on the deal -- with more fireballs available than you started with -- although that wouldn't necessarily be remotely cash-flow positive, especially compared to the output of someone who actually has the spell.
Interesting to note that an item which is not in those categories, but produces the effect, does not count.
seebs wrote: Okay, thought experiment. Imagine that you have a wand containing a spell with an expensive material component. And you want to use that to fulfil the requirement.
PRD wrote: For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
Wrong part of the PRD. You want:
PRD wrote: Feats -> Item Creation Feats
Raw Materials Cost: The cost of creating a magic item equals half the base price of the item.
Item Cost: Brew Potion, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, and Scribe Scroll create items that directly reproduce spell effects, and the power of these items depends on their caster level—that is, a spell from such an item has the power it would have if cast by a spellcaster of that level. The price of these items (and thus the cost of the raw materials) also depends on the caster level. The caster level must be low enough that the spellcaster creating the item can cast the spell at that level. To find the final price in each case, multiply the caster level by the spell level, then multiply the result by a constant, as shown below:
Scrolls: Base price = spell level × caster level × 25 gp.
Potions: Base price = spell level × caster level × 50 gp.
Wands: Base price = spell level × caster level × 750 gp.
Staves: The price for staves is calculated using more complex formulas (see Magic Items).
A 0-level spell is considered to have a spell level of 1/2 for the purpose of this calculation.
Extra Costs: Any potion, scroll, or wand that stores a spell with a costly material component also carries a commensurate cost. For potions and scrolls, the creator must expend the material component cost when creating the item. For a wand, the creator must expend 50 units of the material component. Some magic items similarly incur extra costs in material components, as noted in their descriptions.
seebs wrote: This suggests that if, for some insane reason, you were using a spell trigger item to provide the spells, the number of charges you'd use (which all presumably had a material component cost paid in) varies with days spent crafting. *thinks* Soooo... That sort of implies that the material component cost isn't from "casting the spell", but is inherent to the creation of the item. You need the materials for the crafted item but not the materials for the spells being used to make the item.
PRD wrote: (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) This language is appended to the description of each "Creating X" section. I read this as it uses the spell energy of the creator but does not actually cast the spell. Consider making a ring of wish. Takes many days to make. If you had to expend the material cost each day to actually cast wish to make the item, it would never be made.
seebs wrote: But!
Imagine that you want to create an item which uses scrying. Do you need to have the 1,000gp mirror available? You do if you're an arcane caster, but not if you're a divine caster, because the focus is arcane-only. Similarly, some spells require a divine focus only for divine casters, but not for wizards. So the version of the spell you cast can influence whether you need a focus or not. But, apparently, not whether you need a material component. And you don't use up material components from "expending" the spell every day you work on the item.
Potions, Scrolls, Staffs, and Wands all call out a focus can be reused. Consider also that spell components call out material seperate from a focus.
seebs wrote: I guess the first question should be:
Can anyone think of an example of a spell where whether or not it has a material component varies in some likely way? Like, clerics do, wizards don't, or something like that? Because that would be a first test case.
It would seem pretty weird if the answer were that, for some such hypothetical spell, the cost of creating a wand would vary hugely depending on whether your class needs a material component, but not be affected by the use of the SLA to meet the requirement.
Actually, it does not matter:
PRD wrote: Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item. The only way it could matter is if the caster's class changed the working of the spell. Then you need to specify the variation of the spell used & price it appropriately.
/cevah
seebs wrote: Just wanna sanity-check a thing:
SLAs have no components. Therefore, they do not have expensive material components.
Not true. That's why outsiders who are summoned, can't cast an SLA that has a component value with a listed cost of greater than 1 gp. Thier summoned avatars don't have component bags on them.
My point about the question about the focus is just: Do you need to have an expensive focus *at all* to create an item using divine scry spells?
And actually, I think the PRD ruling about prices and market price implies that it's absolutely intentional that the cost varies. The market price is fixed, but the "prices for two characters to make the same item" may vary. So the character for whom the spell is higher level may be stuck making a more-expensive item... that no one would be willing to buy at the higher market price, or even at the cost in materials for that character to make it.
LazarX wrote: Not true. That's why outsiders who are summoned, can't cast an SLA that has a component value with a listed cost of greater than 1 gp. Thier summoned avatars don't have component bags on them. Is this rationale actually stated anywhere in the rules? Because that would be pretty surprising. In particular, it implies that all genies carry thousands of gold pieces worth of material components, because they're not summoned outsiders. Also the rules explicitly state that SLAs have no components.
So I'm pretty sure that the actual reason is just "this is game balance, stop asking".
Brf wrote: But wait.
Can an SLA be used as satisfying the spell requirement for making a speed completion or spell trigger item? Those requirements are more stringent than the requirements for making other things....
Otherwise, you could read those FAQs as saying you could also use a spell trigger device as satisfying the requirement for making another spell trigger device.... IE: using a wand of fireballs to satisfy the requirement to making another wand of fireballs.
Since you provide the spell for the item on one of several ways, including a spell trigger item, it is RAW from day 1. Using a charge is more expensive than hiring another caster to provide the spell.
Cost of a charge: 15 * SL * CL
Hire a caster: 10 * SL * CL
Not overpowered.
/cevah
LazarX wrote: seebs wrote: Just wanna sanity-check a thing:
SLAs have no components. Therefore, they do not have expensive material components.
Not true. That's why outsiders who are summoned, can't cast an SLA that has a component value with a listed cost of greater than 1 gp. Thier summoned avatars don't have component bags on them. "Spell-Like Ability wrote: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component A spell-like ability does in fact NOT have material components. You are correct that summoned creatures from summon monster cannot use those abilities, but that is a specific rule for summoned monsters, which doesn't mean that SLAs have material components.
Whether or not you can use SLAs for creating magical items I've already stumbled around and made a fool of myself enough trying to determine so I will not rejoin the debate because I clearly don't understand that part of the rules well enough.
seebs wrote:
And actually, I think the PRD ruling about prices and market price implies that it's absolutely intentional that the cost varies. The market price is fixed, but the "prices for two characters to make the same item" may vary. So the character for whom the spell is higher level may be stuck making a more-expensive item... that no one would be willing to buy at the higher market price, or even at the cost in materials for that character to make it.
Most of those characters however are people like sorcerers and oracles who aren't going to bother to take the scribe scroll feat. The feat can't be used to make scrolls of spells they don't know, and they have the flexible slots that wizards and clerics do not. Magi won't take the feat because there's really not much of a place of scrolls in spell combat. And a straight magus has tricks that make having scrolls pretty much unnecessary as they get high enough level.
If this works, I can't see how it could in any way be game breaking. What characters are you playing that you have such devastating spell-like abilities as to make getting around a component cost anything more than a minor convenience?
If your GM is allowing you to play anything powerful enough to make this worth your while (with item creation feats no less!) then he probably has no problem with the missing cost.
Bruunwald wrote: If this works, I can't see how it could in any way be game breaking. What characters are you playing that you have such devastating spell-like abilities as to make getting around a component cost anything more than a minor convenience?
If your GM is allowing you to play anything powerful enough to make this worth your while (with item creation feats no less!) then he probably has no problem with the missing cost.
I'm not to worried either but it is a slippery slope, because what if at some point some race (or class ability) got/gave the ability to use Stone Skin as an SLA? If we simply accept that RAW states that SLAs can be used to circumvent the expensive material cost for the magic item, then we get extremely cheap Stone skin wands, scrolls and more. Whether or not it is RAW to let SLAs circumvent this is what this thread is about and I'm not going to state who is right, because I simply don't know. (because I haven't read enough of the rules). RAI it is very clear that SLAs aren't supposed to allow it.
Bruunwald wrote: If this works, I can't see how it could in any way be game breaking. What characters are you playing that you have such devastating spell-like abilities as to make getting around a component cost anything more than a minor convenience?
If your GM is allowing you to play anything powerful enough to make this worth your while (with item creation feats no less!) then he probably has no problem with the missing cost.
Don't have much specific yet, but I'm sort of poking at the edges in case there turns out to be some particularly handy way to reduce costs of something. There are things like Blood Money, or SLAs, which allow you to bypass component costs; if this then lets you also craft stuff, it might be worth considering, because there have been times when I've sort of wanted to make an item that included a spell with material component costs...
seebs wrote: My point about the question about the focus is just: Do you need to have an expensive focus *at all* to create an item using divine scry spells? I do not think so. You are not casting the spell going into the item, so you don't need the spell components like V, S, M, F, etc.
seebs wrote: And actually, I think the PRD ruling about prices and market price implies that it's absolutely intentional that the cost varies. The market price is fixed, but the "prices for two characters to make the same item" may vary. So the character for whom the spell is higher level may be stuck making a more-expensive item... that no one would be willing to buy at the higher market price, or even at the cost in materials for that character to make it. Market price is fixed.
Base price is 1/2 market price.
You pay base price no matter which class you are, if the item is the
same.
If the spell is different SL or CL due to class abilities, market price and default "found" item is lowest cost. Variant items, whether found or created must be designated as variant, and their price/cost is adjusted. Example, scroll of Fire Trap. By default it is a Druid version because that is the cheapest version. To be the Wizard version, it must be explicitly stated, just as a scroll at a non-minimum level must be stated.
You can have incidental costs vary. If you want to craft the scroll of Fire Trap, and it is not one of your spells, you need to hire a caster to provide it. Druids are cheaper to hire for a 2nd level spell than Wizards for a 4th level spell.
seebs wrote: LazarX wrote: Not true. That's why outsiders who are summoned, can't cast an SLA that has a component value with a listed cost of greater than 1 gp. Thier summoned avatars don't have component bags on them. Is this rationale actually stated anywhere in the rules? Because that would be pretty surprising. In particular, it implies that all genies carry thousands of gold pieces worth of material components, because they're not summoned outsiders. Also the rules explicitly state that SLAs have no components.
So I'm pretty sure that the actual reason is just "this is game balance, stop asking". I think you are right.
Summon Monster Yep, limited.
SM wrote: A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish). Universal Monster Rules Yep, limited.
Summon (Sp) wrote: A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require material components costing more than 1 gp unless those components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are awarded for defeating summoned monsters. Grand Hex Whoa, not expressly limited.
Summon Spirit (Sp) wrote: The witch calls forth the ghost of a humanoid creature with no more than 18 Hit Dice. The ghost has its own personality and desires, but is willing to bargain with the witch, as if she had cast greater planar ally. To seal an agreement with the witch, the ghost requires life energy equal to 1 temporary negative level (this is in addition to the standard payment for the ghost’s service). This negative level persists as long as the ghost remains in the service of the witch; the witch can end the agreement as a standard action, immediately removing the negative level. Greater PA wrote: This spell functions like lesser planar ally, except that you may call a single creature of 18 HD or less, or up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 18. The creatures agree to help you and request your return payment together. Lesser PA wrote: A task taking up to 1 minute per caster level requires a payment of 100 gp per HD of the creature called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level, the creature requires a payment of 500 gp per HD. A long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD GM needs to say the spirit has no material components so you must supply them. If they don't need components, then not a problem.
/cevah
You DO NOT expend components for the spells used to create the item.
You DO expend components required for the finished item.
Consider: Fast Crafting vs. Regular Crafting. Use half the daily expenditure of spells crafting, but does not affect final materials needed.
Consider: If you make a (71,000 gp) Wand of Restoration that can restore a permanent negative level, you need to supply Restoration for many days (71 or 36). If the components were needed for the spells used in making the wand, you would add 71,000 gp (or 36,000 gp). This clearly is not reflected in the wand price formulas.
/cevah
Bruunwald wrote: If this works, I can't see how it could in any way be game breaking. What characters are you playing that you have such devastating spell-like abilities as to make getting around a component cost anything more than a minor convenience?
If your GM is allowing you to play anything powerful enough to make this worth your while (with item creation feats no less!) then he probably has no problem with the missing cost.
Work together with a called (not summoned) efreeti to make the characteristic enhancement tomes.
13 (or 7 if you can take the +5 to the DC) days to make a tome that give a +5 to a characteristic. You don't pay 125.000 gp of material components, so even if you have to pay 25.000 gp to the effreeti you are ahead by a big margin.
Planar ally and planar binding are 6th level spells, so you can do this at 11th level.
Most PC haven't SLA of spells with expensive components, but several creatures have them. With the right resource it wouldn't be difficult to find the rigth creature and convince it to work with you.
And yeah, it seems as though the intent is that the spells "expended" during creation aren't actually being cast, so you aren't using material components for them, but the material components are used to compute the cost of the item.
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