| Thank Dog |
So, you wanna play a 10th-level rogue, huh?
Why yes, yes I do.
Some special limitations on this character's creation. Slightly lower gold (I'm maxed with this build), and a bonus +2 ability score.
Basically I just want to get some advice on whether or not I could make it better or if it's fine or whatever. Output is from PCGen. He took the swashbuckler archetype, Dual Minded racial, Elven Reflexes and Resilient traits and +hit points every favoured class level.
Name: Gavos Arron
Race: Half-Elf
Classes: Rogue10
Hit Points: 112
Experience: 105000 / 155000
Alignment: Neutral
Vision: Low-Light
Speed: Walk 30 ft.
Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon
Stat Score Mod
STR 12 (+1)
DEX 22 (+6)
CON 18 (+4)
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 7 (-2)
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill Total Rnk Stat Msc
Acrobatics 20 10.0 6 4
Acrobatics (Jump/Underground) 6 0.0 6 0
Appraise 1 0.0 1 0
Bluff -2 0.0 -2 0
Climb -1 0.0 1 -2
Craft (Untrained) 1 0.0 1 0
Diplomacy -2 0.0 -2 0
Disable Device 17 10.0 6 1
Disguise -2 0.0 -2 0
Escape Artist 17 10.0 6 1
Fly 4 0.0 6 -2
Heal 2 0.0 2 0
Intimidate -2 0.0 -2 0
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 14 10.0 1 3
Knowledge (Local) 14 10.0 1 3
Perception 17 10.0 2 5
Perform (Untrained) -2 0.0 -2 0
Ride 4 0.0 6 -2
Sense Motive 15 10.0 2 3
Sleight of Hand 17 10.0 6 1
Stealth 17 10.0 6 1
Survival 2 0.0 2 0
Swim -1 0.0 1 -2
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
Dodge
You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.
Great Fortitude
You get a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws.
Improved Initiative
You get a +4 bonus on initiative checks.
Iron Will
You get a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws.
Martial Weapon Proficiency (Gladius)
You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
Two-Weapon Defense
When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.
Two-Weapon Fighting
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Chapter 8.
Weapon Focus (Gladius)
Armor Proficiency, Light
When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks.
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Weapon Finesse
-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 29 / 23 / 23
Initiative: +12
BAB: +7/+2
Melee tohit: +8/+3
Ranged tohit: +13/+8
Fortitude: +12
Reflex: +15
Will: +11
Unarmed attack:
to hit: +13/+8
damage: 1d3+1
critical: 20/x2
Anima:
to hit: +7/+2
damage: 1d6+3
critical: 19-20/x2
special properties: (Gladius +2)
Crista:
to hit: +7
damage: 1d6+2
critical: 19-20/x2
special properties: (Gladius +2)
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name QTY LBS
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 1 0lbs
Ring of Protection +1 1 0lbs
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 1 1lbs
Celestial Armor 1 20lbs Special: use Fly 1/day
Cloak of Resistance +2 1 1lbs
Outfit (Explorer's) 1 8lbs
Handy Haversack (5 lbs.)
Whetstone 1 1lbs
Lantern (Hooded) 1 2lbs Special: Bright illumination (30'), shadowy illumination (60'), 6 hr./pint
Grappling Hook 1 4lbs
Crowbar 1 5lbs Special: +2 circumstance bonus to Strength checks to force open a door or chest
Chalk (1 Piece) 10 0lbs
Candle 10 0lbs Special: Increases light level (5') for 1 hr.
Acid (Flask) 1 1lbs
Antitoxin (Vial) 5 0lbs Special: +5 alchemical bonus to Fortitude saves against poison for 1 hour
Bedroll 1 5lbs
Blanket (Winter) 1 3lbs
Caltrops 1 2lbs
Waterskin (Filled) 5 20lbs
Sack 1 0lbs
Thieves' Tools 1 1lbs
Rope (Silk/50 ft) 6 30lbs Special: 4 hp, DC 24 Strength check to burst
Rations (Trail/Per Day) 10 10lbs
Potion of Cure Serious Wounds 1 0lbs Special: Cures 3d8+5 points of damage
Potion of Cure Light Wounds 3 0lbs Special: Cures 1d8+1 points of damage
Oil (1 Pint Flask) 5 5lbs
Sack (0.5 lbs.)
Sack (0.5 lbs.)
Total weight carried:
Current load: Light
Encumbrance
Light: 43
Medium: 86
Heavy: 130
TheSideKick
|
first i would get rid of dodge, you dont need it. with your low strength stat change dodge into weapon finesse, get your to hit up.
second i would drop WP gladius and use kukris if you are going to use anything, and better yet wakazashi if they are allowed in your game.
i would dip into fighter to get weapon proficiency before i wasted a feat on it. use the extra feat for weapon focus wakashi.
get rid of 2 weapon defense, and work for two weapon rend and double slice.
*edit*
i have a suggestion for you, you may or may not like it...
they have an archetype called trapper ranger i think:
trapper
it is a rogue that is MUCH better at combat, same rouggy goodness at trap smithing ect...
you can still play the rogue concept, if you can get past the fact that it isnt a rogue.
| Vaellen |
You have good AC, HP and saves but you are never going to hit anything unless its already unconscious. A melee character at level 10 should have a MINIMUM of +15 to hit with their primary weapon.
You need Weapon Finesse at a minimum and I'd avoid using two weapon fighting unless you know you are going to have someone that is going to let you flank with them.
Unless you know you are going to be facing lots of low armor opponents you really need to find more +hit bonuses.
| Thank Dog |
He does have weapon finesse.
I think there might be something screwy going on with PCGen. He has a gladius which is just a slightly different shortsword. Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus should bring him to +14 and +2 weapons should give him +16, -2 for TWF. He will also have a couple of flanking buddies (paladin or fighter, he hasn't decided, as well as a melee animal companion). What other bonuses to hit could I get? I can't really afford another + on the weapon.
| Scavion |
As said before, a weapon proficiency feat is a terrible choice. If you'd like a character who can contribute much much more capable in combat and utility wise, I recommend the Alchemist. Vivisectionist even gets you sneak attack. You won't be able to disable magic traps, but the DC on those tend to be ridiculously high even for Rogues and traps are almost never used anyways. You can still disable mechanical and find magic traps however.
| Thank Dog |
second i would drop WP gladius and use kukris if you are going to use anything, and better yet wakazashi if they are allowed in your game.
i would dip into fighter to get weapon proficiency before i wasted a feat on it. use the extra feat for weapon focus wakashi.
Gladius is from the Swashbuckler freebie. I took swashbuckler because it gave extra combat tricks. I think I may have misread it, though, as I think it simply allows you to take combat trick a second time as opposed to giving you two free combat tricks.
get rid of 2 weapon defense, and work for two weapon rend and double slice.
Both were not recommended in the guide but I guess I'll take another look. Although rogue is starting to look like they're a bit crappy in pathfinder.
it is a rogue that is MUCH better at combat, same rouggy goodness at trap smithing ect...
you can still play the rogue concept, if you can get past the fact that it isnt a rogue.
Yeah I wanted rogue because I like playing rogues. Sneak attack, stealth, and normally good social skills. Had to dump Charisma on the guide's recommendation so that shot that pieces. And now it looks like he's not even that good in melee. Does Paizo not like rogues?
| Lord_Malkov |
10 levels of rogue
Gladius is fun, so lets do this jam!
Rogue(SwashBuckler)(Martial Weapon Proficiency: Gladius)
Feats/Talents:
1 Combat Expertise, Racial Trait Adaptability: Skill Focus(Intimidate)
2 Finesse Rogue(Weapon Finesse)
3 Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Gladius)
5 Two-Weapon Feint
6 Combat Trick(Dazzling Display)
7 Hero's Display
8 Combat Trick(Shatter Defenses)
9 Performing Combatant
10 Offensive Defense
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Go full on Dex rogue.
Full Attack:Two-weapon feint, perform check, demoralize all enemies within 30ft, attack feint target, apply sneak attack, shatter its defenses. Now its flat-footed. Enjoy.
| Rynjin |
Does Paizo not like rogues?
Paizo is under the impression that a Rogue doesn't need to contribute in combat if it is decent out of combat.
Despite the fact that there are a number of other, better designed classes (Ranger, Alchemist, Wizard, etc.) that contribute more in combat, and just as much (or more) out of it.
If you want:
Sneak attack, stealth, and normally good social skills.
You can get at least two of the three from a Vivisectionist Alchemist (Sneak Attack, Stealth, good number of skills but no social focus) or an Inquisitor/Bard (stealth, good number of skills and good socially, though Inquisitor needs the Conversion Inquisition or Infiltrator archetype to run Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate off of Wis).
An Inquisitor rocks in combat too, it doesn't need Sneak Attack to keep up.
| Scavion |
Thank Dog wrote:Does Paizo not like rogues?Paizo is under the impression that a Rogue doesn't need to contribute in combat if it is decent out of combat.
Despite the fact that there are a number of other, better designed classes (Ranger, Alchemist, Wizard, etc.) that contribute more in combat, and just as much (or more) out of it.
Basically most rogues end up being a nice way for a GM to increase the difficulty of an encounter without raising the CR. Since most rogues can't contribute a whole lot to a multitude of different foes, a CR12 Encounter with 4 people can easily become a CR12 Encounter with 3 People and your rogue has no ranged weapon oh my god the dragon is strafing us with his breath weapon why couldn't you contribute more aghhhhhhhh....
And even if your rogue has a ranged weapon he wouldn't be getting sneak attack in that situation or be shooting halfway decently.
A vivisectionist can get good social skills by grabbing Student of Philosophy.
| Thank Dog |
Thanks everyone but I think I've now given up on the rogue. I tend to start with concept first and then try to implement it but I'm finding with PF that I should probably do it the other way around. My bard didn't quite work out, my rogue didn't quite work out, my previous rogue from months ago didn't work either. I think I'll just find a cookie and cut it :)
| Scavion |
Thanks everyone but I think I've now given up on the rogue. I tend to start with concept first and then try to implement it but I'm finding with PF that I should probably do it the other way around. My bard didn't quite work out, my rogue didn't quite work out, my previous rogue from months ago didn't work either. I think I'll just find a cookie and cut it :)
Sorry buddy. My heart goes out to you. I wish they'd give the rogue some goodies to help them out in combat.
Malkov posted a pretty good build, Id check it out.
| Rynjin |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks everyone but I think I've now given up on the rogue. I tend to start with concept first and then try to implement it but I'm finding with PF that I should probably do it the other way around. My bard didn't quite work out, my rogue didn't quite work out, my previous rogue from months ago didn't work either. I think I'll just find a cookie and cut it :)
Starting with a concept isn't a bad way to go about it, it's how I make all my guys.
The issue is that the best way to fulfill that concept is rarely (if ever) going to be a Rogue.
Rogues are only good at a handful of things, at best, and the sad truth is those things can be handled just as well by other classes. Maybe not all 5 simultaneously, but enough of that handful in addition to the other things they can do to make the class undesirable.
Rogues can be fun, but they're not a class you wanna pick unless you're REALLY sure your optimization skills can push them up to the point they contribute properly, much like a Monk (Monks are hella fun as well, but take a lot of work to make good compared to other classes).
If you tell us your basic concept, we could help you flesh that out better. Hell, if you're dead set on Rogue, there's a bunch of people that can help you make the best Rogue you can (though I personally wouldn't be able to help much with that, I don't touch 'em).
If you're starting with a concept in this game it should always be in the format of "I want to be able to do X, Y, and Z general categories of things" (Dex based melee combat, high social skills, party support, for example) or "Here's my character's backstory, how best do I make that a reality?" rather than "I want X class doing Y and Z things", otherwise you'll sometimes end up trying to fit a square peg in a round hole instead of picking that nice round (or at least somewhat oval shaped) peg another class can provide.
| Mortag1981 |
I had the same issue Thank Dog. I did a rogue for the first few levels of PFS, and was really just underwhelmed by what I could accomplish.
What I see though, is that you had an idea of what you wanted (sneak attack, stealth, social skills) and then you went to a guide that was designed for combat effectiveness. It's something you have to ask yourself, if you're willing to sacrifice certain aspects to be a beast in combat.
If you want to do TWF, then there are way better classes for it (as has been stated). It's just too feat intensive for Rogues. If you want to be sneaky and rack up sneak attack damage, there's a lot of ways to do that, but the theorycraft will show that it's not on par DPR with a lot of other builds.
One of the big hits against the Rogue is that Perception is pretty much a "must have" skill for every class in pathfinder, so you never really make your way as the guy who can see traps. And like Rynjin pointed out, Alchemists can disable traps just as well (though they don't get trapfinding, so they're probably not as good at disabling magical traps).
At the end of the day, if you're worried about putting up numbers in combat, go find a guide that looks fun and cut that cookie, lol. If you're willing to trade combat effectiveness to see your idea play out, just be aware that you won't keep up with the min/max folks. As long as you're having fun, that's the main thing.
| nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
i also start every character with a concept (not mechanics, like 'oh a rogue that...." but a vague idea like "hmm maybe a really dwarfy dwarf that uses racial weapons and is good with traps and underground stuff") then i try to figure out what is the best way is to make the most optimal expression of that concept (in that example i went with 3 levels of trapper ranger for trapfinding, favored enemy [orc], and favored terrain [underground], then switched to fighter for all the bonus feats).
maybe that approach would yield more what you're looking for... try distilling your concept to abstracts and then ask "how can i do this in the best way?" if your abstracts focus on skills and melee look over ranger options, if you want to be clever and be trained exploit weaknesses/opening in combat check out the vivesectionist, if you just want to be really stealthy there are tons of ways to do that. you could even try posting a more abstract concept here and i'm sure there would be people who would post suggestions.
| Atarlost |
By taking the swashbuckler archetype you've traded out trapfinding. Having done that there is absolutely no reason to be a rogue anymore.
Vivisectionist does sneak attack better and does have disable device as a class skill for non-magical traps.
But sneak attack is not an end in itself. It's a way to boost melee damage. Other classes have other ways to boost melee damage. Bards and inquisitors can easily get over +20 in static damage bonuses with power attack while still having higher accuracy