Nature's Whispers and Max Dex -PFS

[Duriel_Jones]

Does the Max Dex limit on armor apply to CHA when an oracle has Nature's Whispers?

Nature's Whispers:

Nature's Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.

There are many threads in which people have debated this, but that is no help in PFS when the GM is unsure about it.
Is there any official/semi-official(anyone that works at Paizo) FAQ/ruling/comment/allusion to this that I have missed?

If not I believe this is a reasonable FAQ candidate and think the community could be well served by this issue being addressed.

[Seraphimpunk]

it doesn't say it, but when asked about sidestep secret, they clarified that it doesn't apply to flat footed AC like regular dex usually doesn't.

Quote:

Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.

vs.

Quote:

Nature's Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.

nothing afaik on it for PFS.

in house, i'd assume some more similarity in these two revelations, in that Nature's Whispers allows you to add your Cha instead of your Dex to AC. and any limitations that would apply to dex on AC ( like max dex from armor ) will apply to this charisma bonus as well, and likewise it'll apply to touch AC if you're aware of the attack, and not apply to flat-footed if you can be caught flat-footed. but i haven't heard anything about it for PFS.

though they've also said somewhere that since Sidestep Secret doesn't say it applies to CMD like Nature's Whispers does, it can't RAW be applied. so they're not exactly the same. which is silly, it would have been better to write one good clear revelation, and reference it. like they do with Safe Curing in Battle and Life Mysteries.

the only FAQ has been to Sidestep Secret. link

[Lifat]

RAI I assume is to have max dex from armor effect max charisma equally.
RAW there really isn't anything definitive. I've flagged it for FAQ.

[lantzkev]

it's in place of dex, because of it normal restrictions applications from armor apply by rule of substitution.

[James Risner]

lantzkev wrote:

it's in place of dex, because of it normal restrictions applications from armor apply by rule of substitution.

I agree, if your Dex is limited due to Max Dex then your Cha would be likewise limited.

Also, it is just easier to go with it being limited. The last thing you want is to sit down at a table and have to recompute your character if it isn't working because the GM believes it is limited.

[Duriel_Jones]

While it may be easier to just assume it is limited, I would rather not limit it simply because it the GM may choose to interpret it differently than I. It's not like +/-4 AC will outright render my character ineffective but that is certainly enough to make a significant change in my actions.

That is the reason that I am trying to get it FAQ'ed so I can put the issue to rest and not have to worry about it.

[Remy Balster]

*Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity (see FAQ.)

vs

Nature's Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.

Pretty much identical oracle revelations. I'd assume it was an editing mistake, personally. But it could be interpreted as an intentional difference in abilities, because if they spelled it out in one, then since they didn't spell it out in the other that suggests it is different.

Edit: You know what? I never noticed until now that they actually are different. One adds to AC and CMD, the other is AC and reflex saves. It probably is intentional, I'd say max dex doesn't apply in Nature's Whispers case. Also, I'd say that things that deny you a dex to your AC don't deny your Cha to AC in Sidestep Secret's case too. They each have different minor restrictions, and slightly different effects.

[Kazaan]

I say that spelling out the max dex limitation on SS is telling and the absence of such a clause for NW is the exception that proves the rule. Just as the Agile and Guided weapon properties spell out that you don't get the two-handed bonus as you would with Strength implies that, without those specific exceptions, similar properties would increase the damage when the weapon is wielded two-handed. Likewise, specifying that your max Dex applies for SS implies that the default rule is that max Dex only applies to Dexterity.

Thematically speaking, the two abilities function differently. Sidestep Secret lets you use your shear force of personality and confidence to anticipate attacks and you twist out of the way at the last second; this involves dealing with the movement limitations of your armor. It's intuitive dodging rather than agile dodging. By contrast, Nature's Whispers is a much more strategic kind of avoidance that governs positioning long before the attack ever even comes; you're basically feeling the flow of the would around you and place yourself in the best position ahead of time that allows the world to flow around you on its own while Sidestep is a matter of feeling the burst of action at the time of the attack. To illustrate, imagine two characters walking into a hail of arrows. The one with Sidestep Secret is actively moving from side to side almost Matrix style, dodging at the last possible second. The one with Nature's Whispers, however, is calmly walking through the barrage, making no attempt to move out of the way, but every single one seems to miss because this character knew where the arrows would be long before they were fired... maybe even before they were made. So it doesn't matter how restrictive your armor is, you merely move normally through an attack because you already know where it wasn't going to be and you simply position yourself there. This also explains why Nature's Whispers doesn't apply to Reflex Saves; effects that normally call for Reflex Saves are magically generated and defy the normal operations of nature to the point where the ability can't predict them. By contrast, Sidestep can react even to these because it's more "in the moment" and not relying on long-term anticipation but short-term reaction. This means that you are restricted by how your armor will allow you to move, but it doesn't affect CMD because of the tactical focus of the ability; it's meant to protect you from direct harm rather than indirect harm.

Another major difference is that SS is a supernatural ability so it won't work in an anti-magic field or other magic-suppression while NW is an Extraordinary ability and it will not suffer anti-magic interference.

[Duriel_Jones]

While I personally agree with both Remy and Kazaan I also understand the reasoning of those who say it would be limited.

Which is exactly why I am hoping to get some sort of official response to so that , at least for PFS, I could know exactly were my character stands.

[Remy Balster]

Kazaan wrote:

Thematically speaking, the two abilities function differently. Sidestep Secret lets you use your shear force of personality and confidence to anticipate attacks and you twist out of the way at the last second; this involves dealing with the movement limitations of your armor. It's intuitive dodging rather than agile dodging. By contrast, Nature's Whispers is a much more strategic kind of avoidance that governs positioning long before the attack ever even comes; you're basically feeling the flow of the would around you and place yourself in the best position ahead of time that allows the world to flow around you on its own while Sidestep is a matter of feeling the burst of action at the time of the attack. To illustrate, imagine two characters walking into a hail of arrows. The one with Sidestep Secret is actively moving from side to side almost Matrix style, dodging at the last possible second. The one with Nature's Whispers, however, is calmly walking through the barrage, making no attempt to move out of the way, but every single one seems to miss because this character knew where the arrows would be long before they were fired... maybe even before they were made. So it doesn't matter how restrictive your armor is, you merely move normally through an attack because you already know where it wasn't going to be and you simply position yourself there. This also explains why Nature's Whispers doesn't apply to Reflex Saves; effects that normally call for Reflex Saves are magically generated and defy the normal operations of nature to the point where the ability can't predict them. By contrast, Sidestep can react even to these because it's more "in the moment" and not relying on long-term anticipation but short-term reaction. This means that you are restricted by how your armor will allow you to move, but it doesn't affect CMD because of the tactical focus of the ability; it's meant to protect you from direct harm rather than indirect harm.

Thank you for this. I now want to play an Oracle of Nature, because that description is just awesome.

[Duriel_Jones]

I was just thinking about this again over the weekend and am honestly curious why this has not come up more often. The mystery is in the APG, not some splatbook, so I can't be the first oracle that wants to use heavier armor and Nature's Whispers.

Or is that very few people play defensively built oracles?

[James Risner]

Duriel_Jones wrote:

curious why this has not come up more often.

Mostly because getting official answers to how a rule works in PFS is uncommon. So whenever you build a character with a "corner case" rule, you run into table variance and you don't have a solution for years.

My variances:

1) Greater Overrun/Charge Through/Elephant Stomp. I've got a character form 2010 that uses these, sees variance at every table and no official rules or PFS guide.
2) Eagle Shaman also from 2010 just got a clarification on how he can use the Roc Wild Shape but not yet on the summoning question.

This has changed my build behavior. I now build using the most restrictive reading of the rules. So when I go to a table, the only variance is that I'm more powerful than I planned. I recommend that to everyone. It makes you enjoy the games so much more.

[Duriel_Jones]

That is certainly what I will be doing in the future.
I did not realize it was such a grey area when I made this character , I just thought it was an interesting opportunity to play a character that was very hard to hit and yet not particularly agile.

As I am already invested in him I figured it could not hurt to ask. I have not particularly followed rules clarifications so I didn't realize how potentially futile it could be.

[Varenal Heavenborne]

You are definitely not the first oracle in heavy armor. I actually ran in PFS a cha based paladin with a 1 level splash of nature oracle just to get this revelation (took the legalistic curse to boot, you know, because I had to follow the law anyways as a paladin). When I would smite an evil boss target, I'd end up with double my charisma modifier as a bonus to armor class. By level 18 I was rocking around a 72 AC with everything totaled.

Oh yeah, just to be mean, the paladin also knows the spell mirror images (from the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat) *and* also took the Divine Interference feat.

[blahpers]

Oh noes, you double-dipped Charisma bonus on the same number! Cats and dogs living together. Mass hysteria! ; )

[seebs]

The other thing I note is one's Su and one's Ex.