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I've created a dungeon with a time limit, and I want to see if people think it would be too hard.
The dungeon spirals inward through 8 battle encounters and 6 skill encounters. As our heroes move forward, the back wall closes in after them at a rate of one square a round. This means that our heroes need to finish the dungeon within about 140 rounds. Obviously, they won't be able to sleep, and both buffing and strategizing will need to be done quickly.
Is 140 rounds enough to do 8 battle encounters and 6 skill encounters with no sleeping. Each Battle is as APL or APL-1, except for the Boss which is at APL+2. Assuming Party of four level 6 characters.
For more details, you can find the whole thing here: Jacob's Tower, Level 6: Gauntlet
Don't include doors. If you do, the players will find a way to run past the encounter, block the door, and have the monster-squishing wall do their work for them.
I would see that as very rough. The average of what I've played is MAYBE 4 encounters/day (on a busy day), each encoutner lasting from 5-10 rounds. More if APL+X.
This would be doable for a party with consistent powers (IE, fighters/rogues) but it would become difficult with anybody that has resources to manage.
For example, a magus spends 1 arcane point to enchant his weapon for 1 minute (10 rounds). At level 6 , you dont have much more than 6-8 ap. Without spending your AP, you become very limited in melee, because of your lesser bab.
It would be even worse for spellcasters who are useless (or pretty close) when they run out of spells. What can a wizard do after it's spells have run out? They have no bab, limited whacking power. They've got skills, but they are limited. So they would either be useless for 1/2 of the encounters (because they're saving their spells), or they run out too fast.
Dont forget though, 140 rounds is only about 15 minutes of time. Not an easy thing to get around.
If the party knows in advance this will happen, and with smart planning, it could work. But only with the right party. I would lower the APL so that they can still survive without needing to expend their limited resources at the beginning.
I think you have it just about right there. In games I play, encounters generally take 5-10 rounds. I'm assuming you want to keep the moving wall right on the characters' heels to keep the sense of danger. I think if you increased the time to anything more than 140 rounds, the players may get far enough ahead of the wall that it'll become inconsequential.
Random idea:
It's possible a really good party will get far enough ahead of the wall for it to stop being a threat. You could balance that out by having some kind of "catchup" wall fly out at designated points and start following them anew, even if they've left the main one behind. Maybe a new wall begins to follow (x rounds after) every time they turn a south-facing bend?
That way you've got some kind of constant threat, no matter how well the party are doing.
(And yeah, I'm aware its "punishing them for being good", but that's what balancing is :) )
It also means you're free to up the maximum limit a bit if you feel that overall it's too hard. Between the two, it should end up relatively challenging for any difficulty of player.
I still think that this is too much for a single party. I've checked out the level on zenith games, and the combination of monsters & threats would quickly drain even a well prepared party. I'll read it in more detail later, but I think the speed of the wall isnt the issue here. This level alone has as much going on as some entire dungeons. I dont see an average party surviving long enough for the wall to become a problem.
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@Manimal - Yup, no doors, although I do like the idea of the PC's using the wall offensively!
@Williamoak - Resource management is perhaps the most worrying part of this level for me. However, I've found that parties often don't break a sweat against anything less than APL+1. Hopefully the fights will be at just the right difficulty for a APL 6 party conserving resources. EDIT: I'm excited to see what you come up with when looking at it closer! Keep in mind that most of these fights are APL-1, and that most skill encounters shouldn't drain any resources.
@Peachbottom & @Matt Thomason: There are two mechanics in place to make sure that the wall doesn't get too far behind (out of sight, out of mind). First, the way to get treasure on this level is to flip a button, then wait around a few turns while treasure spawns. Thus, parties will get to choose between safety and loot, choose loot, and the wall will move closer (rewarding them for being good). Second, the boss battle rewards backtracking, both because the boss is a slow melee guy with an aura and because the party can draw him over traps. Both of these factors should encourage a good deal of breathing room when dealing with the wall, and keep the players moving at a clip.
@ Broken zenith: I'd be interested in seeing how this works out. It will really be dependant on the level of optimization of the characters, because I've seen as many parties struggling at APL as doing well. It needs some options for scaling the difficulty, and some kind of warning about what's ahead; because most parties I know would expect 4, MAYBE 5 combat encounters. The non-martials will be helpless for the rest.
Edit: to answer your edit, I'm a fairly new palyer, but I've been having fun theorycrafting and I think I'm getting a decent "mathematical" understanding of the game. I'm stating to build my own encounters (as experiments) and your own tower is very nice for inspiration. I'll run some numbers and see what I can get, assuming a party of "cleric/wizard/rogue/fighter" (stereotypical, yes, but average). Might have to wait for tommorow since I have a game tonight.
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@Williamoak - I may include a warning to conserve resources, though hopefully adventurers will get the picture. Yes, I may also include a scaling for difficulty, though Jacob's tower is designed to be a succeed or die challenge. Let me know what you think if you run the numbers.
@foolsjourney -Yup, I'm hoping the threat of nasty crushing death will help players get their turns done faster!
@ broken zenith: havent had the chance to run the numbers yet, but this seems to go against my understanding of why you were designing this. After all, I thought this was a teaching thing, to get people into the rules. Puting something so punishing seems to be diverging from the intent I understood.
In any case, I'll run the numbers as soon as I can. It'll be hard to evaluate rate of resource consumption.
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Be prepared to deal with zany party antics hat can derail the entire thing, such as scrolls of stone shape, soften earth & stone, earthquake, latticed immovable rods, teleport, dimension door, burrow/earth glide etc...
I know if I tried that on my players they'd spend more time trying to find a way to stop the wall than actually going along with the scenario.
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@Williamoak - True, I do have to walk a careful balance between teaching and interesting. However, teaching can still be difficult. The goal with these is to not only teach new players the basics, but also teach experienced players a thing or two. In any case, this is level 6. Hopefully the newer players will also be at lower levels, and will get the chance to learn down there. As the levels increase, so will the relative difficulty.
@Dezhem - All definitely the case, and I may have to add a few provisions. But they are only level 6 - what are they actually going to have at that level?