Demons in PFS

[Tarma]

So, this came up quite a bit yesterday and I was wondering what the general consensus was on this. If there is a demon encounter in a scenario and it doesn't say if they are summoned or not, what is the default for them?

This actually has some implications on their effectiveness in combat.

[Matthew Pittard]

Some scenarios state that X and Y have been summoned and thus cannot use their summoning power. If it does not state this then the summoning ability is open for use. Keep in mind that this is factored into the CR for the monster.

[Belafon]

When a demon (or any other creature) is summoned, the scenario will say so. Mainly because the author must then list how many rounds until they vanish back to their home plane.

Any creature without a duration is considered to be called/plane shifted/physically on Golarion. As Matthew mentioned, that means that unless the scenario says otherwise, using their own summons is fair game.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I would assume not summoned unless explicitly mentioned otherwise for season 5.

[Thomas, the Tiefling Hero!]

Summoned or not, I'll kill them all the same!

+2 Cold iron longsword: 1d20 + 16 ⇒ (20) + 16 = 36; Damage: 1d8 + 15 ⇒ (1) + 15 = 16
Iterative: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (9) + 11 = 20; Damage: 1d8 + 15 ⇒ (4) + 15 = 19

EDIT:
Critical confirmation: 1d20 + 16 ⇒ (11) + 16 = 27; Damage: 1d8 + 15 ⇒ (1) + 15 = 16

[Silbeg]

I would have to agree with the above, for sure.

Because summoned demons would only be around for a short time, I would expect that any that are doing anything of any note would be called (or just walked through the Worldwound).

There is at least one situation that I can think of that an outsider (not a demon in this case) will try to summon, but cannot.

So, generally speaking, they have their summons available... and they can touch targets that have Protection vs. Evil up (the latter is probably more important).

[Magnus Landros]

Thomas, I'm with you... summoned or called or whatever...

For the Last of the Azlant! For Taldor! I smite thee, evil demon!

Smiting Power Attack with Cold Iron Falchion: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (5) + 10 = 152d4 + 17 ⇒ (4, 2) + 17 = 23

EDIT

Using Reroll on that!: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (14) + 10 = 242d4 + 17 ⇒ (1, 4) + 17 = 22

[RainyDayNinja]

On a related question, I was playing "The Sarkorian Prophecy" (which of course takes place near the Worldwound), and tried to cast dismissal on a demon, but the GM said that because it came through the Worldwound rather than using regular inter-planar travel, then it wasn't considered extraplanar, and couldn't be dismissed. Is this true?

[Jiggy]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

On a related question, I was playing "The Sarkorian Prophecy" (which of course takes place near the Worldwound), and tried to cast dismissal on a demon, but the GM said that because it came through the Worldwound rather than using regular inter-planar travel, then it wasn't considered extraplanar, and couldn't be dismissed. Is this true?

Extraplanar Subtype wrote:

This subtype is applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane.

[TwilightKnight]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

Is this true?

AFAIK, no it is not. Regardless of the method of travel, a demon on the prime would be considered extra-planar and subject to whatever dismissal/banishment powers you have unless they specifically reference the demon's (or whatever) method of arrival.

[zylphryx]

To expand on the Extraplanar Subtype Jiggy mentioned, it should have been applied to the demon on the prime material plane as this is not its native plane, regardless of the method of travel (unless it is specifically called out as an exception).

The description for Extraplanar Subtype is merely stating that it is a conditional subtype. When one travels from one plane to another, it will be applied (even to PCs) when the being in question is on a plane other than its native plane and when it returns to its native plane the subtype it removed.

[nosig]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

On a related question, I was playing "The Sarkorian Prophecy" (which of course takes place near the Worldwound), and tried to cast dismissal on a demon, but the GM said that because it came through the Worldwound rather than using regular inter-planar travel, then it wasn't considered extraplanar, and couldn't be dismissed. Is this true?

Not to long ago, in a high level game set near the World Wound, my Cleric was very prepared for Demons with several dismissal/banishment spells prepared.

It came as a shock when the demon I had Dismissed returned within two rounds - teleporting to a tactically better position. The judge explained that, as the world wound was "just over there", that put us within teleport range...

[FLite]

I'm not sure how legit that is. It depends on where in hell the banishment sends it in relation to where the hell side of the world wound is, and how travel works there.

But it is absolutely awesome and hilarious.

[nosig]

FLite wrote:

I'm not sure how legit that is. It depends on where in hell the banishment sends it in relation to where the hell side of the world wound is, and how travel works there.

But it is absolutely awesome and hilarious.

I was somewhat depressing to realize that a big chunk of my spells were now nearly useless, [b]because[/i] I had put thought and preperation into preperations for the game.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

This conundrum comes from the frustrations GM's often feel at their even being at the table being marginalized (the uber cheese monkeys just running rough-shod over everything) that when they finally have a big bad beasty they know will present a challenge essentially gets a save or suck for a very anti-climactic end to a boring event.

So the GM's often have a GM vs. Player attitude and try to find every "legal" way they can to keep that encounter challenging.

Sometimes, a GM just has to learn how to say, "Ok, you've won that encounter." and move on.

[FLite]

And sometimes it is not so much uber cheese, as specialization. A lot of the uber cheese that I have seen comes down to "I do one thing, but I am amazing at it." And sometimes GMs need to learn to let that PC shine. There will be plenty of adventures where they will be absolutely useless. (Slumber witch in a scenario with mindless undead for example)

[Brian Darnell]

FLite wrote:

And sometimes it is not so much uber cheese, as specialization. A lot of the uber cheese that I have seen comes down to "I do one thing, but I am amazing at it." And sometimes GMs need to learn to let that PC shine. There will be plenty of adventures where they will be absolutely useless. (Slumber witch in a scenario with mindless undead for example)

Thanks Flite. This message needs to be said a LOT.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

FLite wrote:

And sometimes it is not so much uber cheese, as specialization. A lot of the uber cheese that I have seen comes down to "I do one thing, but I am amazing at it." And sometimes GMs need to learn to let that PC shine. There will be plenty of adventures where they will be absolutely useless. (Slumber witch in a scenario with mindless undead for example)

I agree. Just stating a reason for the potential disconnect.

[Thomas, the Tiefling Hero!]

Speaking of save-or-sucks, anyone seen that titan centipede come out of the Worldwound yet? He'd better not be slacking off; there's demons that need trampling!

[David Bowles]

I am finding that the PCs need to be able to dispatch NPCs quickly in tier 10-11, or risk TPK. The issue is that to be competent at tier 10-11, the PC has to be build in a manner that might completely dominate the lower tiers.