Bonus Feats (alternate fighter class feature)

[rainzax]

the fighter needs no help at fighting. he is not an underpowered class. but, i think he needs a small boost to his overall versatility, for he is both more-or-less locked into the combat feats he takes and low on skill points all-around. i am not a fan of grating him additional feats nor skill points. but, i think if we create a little free play in his feat selection, allowing him a limited ability to swap combat feats around, this allows him to cover more ground with less feat slots, thereby creating 'space' for him to consider out-of-combat feats without stepping down from his in-combat effectiveness.

inspirations for this proposal drawn here and here.

(changes in blue)

Bonus Feats (alternate):

Spoiler:

At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, by spending 10 minutes practicing drills and exercises, a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The feat slot that the fighter "retrains" may hereafter be retrained again so long as the fighter gets 8 hours of sleep between retraining. He gains a second retrainable feat slot at 8th level, and another every four fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of five at 20th level. If the fighter swaps out a feat that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability, he loses all benefits from that feat, prestige class, or other ability until he relearns the prerequisite feat.

...

thoughts?

[Turtleaaa]

Maybe not what you are looking for, but here would be my quick adjustment to 'fix' the fighter/rogue/monk.

I know you mentioned not being a fan of adding more feats, but I think
all three classes really need more combat/rogue/martial arts feats.
A wizard gets about 2 spell slots a level. Why should a fighter
have fewer combat moves than the wizard has spells? You'd think
a high level fighter should be, say, master of one handed melee
weapons _and_ shields, or two handed weapons _and_ the bow, along with
having feats left over for combat maneuvers and 'throw any item'
because he gets in a lot of bar fights. The non-combat limited
feats he can then use for out of combat improvement as he doesn't
have a lot of skill points.

In addition, there really needs to be more '9th level' type feats.
I'm not a fan of feats just adding more damage or to hit or something,
but rather those that add a new combat ability. A high level fighter
should be inhumanly skilled at combat, be rather lucky and is probably
at least as strong as an ogre (21 str), which is something that is 10
feet tall and 650 pounds. If Arnold has done it in one of his movies,
the high level fighter should have a good chance of pulling it off.

Three examples:

What is a typical hero move when faced with some huge monstrous creature
or giant? Simple, leap onto the creatures back.

Feat: Tail of the Tiger
(numbers left vague here and in the other feats but you get the idea)
On a successful check, character leaps onto the back, or equivalent
if present, of a creature a size category or more larger than the character.

As long as character is on the creatures back, creature is unable to
attack the character, but can use a standard action to attempt to
dislodge him. If creature attempts a dislodge (and fails), character
must sacrifice his actions on the next turn to remain in position.

If creature does not attempt to dislodge (say, attacks or does something
else on its turn), character gets an attack of opportunity with a
one handed weapon during that action and further gets to act during
his turn, say, a full attack sequence.

Next, what generally happens when the SPECTRE leader is trying to shoot
Bond or the evil wizard is trying to turn the hero to stone? He ends
up hitting his minions!

Feat: Minion Shield

Choose one enemy at range. If in melee combat, character is able to
keep the melee enemy between him and the ranged attacker (you can decide
whether a maneuver check is needed, and that melee enemy should probably
get a decent bonus to hit). Any attack (spell or weapon) made by that
ranged enemy has a 50% chance of hitting the melee enemy instead of the
character.

Last example, when Kung Fu Panda wades into the enemy forces what
usually happens? The enemies end up missing Panda and hitting their
buddies!

Feat: Now you see me, now you...

When an attack by a flanking attacker misses by 10 or more (I don't
know what number seems fair but like the idea of character AC playing
into it rather than just being a natural 1 for example), character
can redirect the attack into hitting the other flanker (roll a new
'to hit' by attacking enemy).

So with these types of feats (and enough slots to actually take
them) the fighter/monk/rogue can actually have combat moves to deal
with the large enemy (which he can't do typical maneuvers on),
a vampire attempting to dominate him (attack the giant wolf and
hide behind it) and the sneak attacker may do him a favor.

They are also the typical action hero moves that should be available
rather than just more pluses--they are the type of 'feats' that
should be available.

Of course the enemies should have access also (although the
idea is they are high level feats not available to the typical
character/creature): that Kobold commander is more of a threat
to the wizard than initially thought, or it is impossible to
get a clear shot to help the fighter, who is currently in a
sword duel with the kings personal body guard, and maybe
the party's rogue wants to forgo that last flanking attack of the
full attack sequence as the slippery assassin may move at
the last minute.

[rainzax]

given the advent of the Brawler, ought the combat feat modularity (above the really long post) be sped up?

i kind of like the premeditated aspect of it, like the difference between a wizard (prepared fighter) and a sorcerer (spontaneous brawler).

also, is 4th level too long to wait? it syncs up nice with how 'bonus feats' is already written (swappable feats at 4/8/12/16/20 daily as opposed to once per four levels).

mind, this change stands alone from, or in addition to, a complete feat rewrite. in this sense, it turns a little fighter madness into a feature instead of a bug.

01- Combat Style Feat
02- Combat Style Feat, Bravery
03- Armor Training I
04- 1st Prepared Feat
05- Weapon Training I
06- Combat Style Feat
07- Armor Training II
08- 2nd Prepared Feat
09- Weapon Training II
10- Combat Style Feat...

[Ciaran Barnes]

I thought I felt some deja vu, so I did a quick search and some time travel!

My recommendation is allow your self more freedom in rewriting this class feature. I recognize the work required to re-write the feat the way you have - keeping the maximum amount of original language, but since your additions comprise so much of the text you should just allow yourself to rewrite the second paragraph entirely.

I haven't been keeping up on the ACG playtest, but it seems to me that some form of the Brawler's Martial Maneuvers ability should be incorporated into the fighter.

[rainzax]

i try to always credit an original idea to it author. link to that thread 'Vancian Fighter' posted in first post under 'inspirations'.

you probably missed it because this gigantic Turtle (aaa!) parked in the middle of the thread, lol.

what do you think about keeping stat req's intact? i know this to be an unpopular opinion.

also, say Vance, a 16th level fighter, who has 4 prepared feats, wants to spend them all on Critical Feats (all which have requirements such as '14th level fighter' or 'BAB 15') - can/should we let him do that? my initial instinct is to say yes. but a counter-opinion might be to say that the 4th/8th/12th level feats must be prepared with requirement Vance could theoretically meet as a 4th/8th/12th level character. i say let them scale! you?

[Ciaran Barnes]

Right you are.

Please explain what you mean by keeping stat (ability score) requirements intact.

I would let Vance do that. He's worked hard enough.

[rainzax]

the argument, which has teeth, is that the Ranger can bypass prerequisites entirely (like with Improved Precise Shot) when selecting a feat via his Combat Style, so why not the Fighter?

[master_marshmallow]

Marshmallow's fighter fix based on the brawler also does this and includes combat styles.

[rainzax]

i see.

does Marshmallow think there is a place in the game for a prepared vs spontaneous feat user?

[master_marshmallow]

Martial Flexibility offers you access to spontaneous feats that you qualify for. Only picking a certain number of feats changeable on the daily is weaker than Martial Flexibility.

Consider it Schrodinger's fighter who always has the correct feat chosen, so long as he can spend an action in combat.

[Ciaran Barnes]

rainzax wrote:

the argument, which has teeth, is that the Ranger can bypass prerequisites entirely (like with Improved Precise Shot) when selecting a feat via his Combat Style, so why not the Fighter?

I offer the counter-point that a ranger is limited to a specific tree of feats. For a fighter, whose only restriction is that it is a combat feat, I would keep all prerequisites in place.

[master_marshmallow]

When designing my fighter fix, I took note that the brawler got a certain number of feats for free that were essentially the equivalent of a combat style, also free of prerequisites. I took that into consideration when I decided to give my fighter combat styles like the ranger, but I gave him access one level sooner.

[christos gurd]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

rainzax wrote:

the argument, which has teeth, is that the Ranger can bypass prerequisites entirely (like with Improved Precise Shot) when selecting a feat via his Combat Style, so why not the Fighter?

I offer the counter-point that a ranger is limited to a specific tree of feats. For a fighter, whose only restriction is that it is a combat feat, I would keep all prerequisites in place.

i did the opposite and allowed them to add fighter level to ability score and bab prereqs, however i staggered it at every other level, so a single fighter level doesn't grant an inch on feats.)

[rainzax]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

rainzax wrote:

the argument, which has teeth, is that the Ranger can bypass prerequisites entirely (like with Improved Precise Shot) when selecting a feat via his Combat Style, so why not the Fighter?

I offer the counter-point that a ranger is limited to a specific tree of feats. For a fighter, whose only restriction is that it is a combat feat, I would keep all prerequisites in place.

i agree with you

master_marshmallow wrote:

Martial Flexibility offers you access to spontaneous feats that you qualify for. Only picking a certain number of feats changeable on the daily is weaker than Martial Flexibility.

all else being equal yes. but you are missing my question. why not have two mundane martial classes, one with more feats but less flexibility, one with less feats but more flexibility? consider the difference in play styles behind the Wizard and the Sorcerer. same principle. the biggest difference between ACG Brawler and your Fighter is flavor, not play style. my questions is: is there a place in the game for a prepared vs spontaneous feat user?

[master_marshmallow]

rainzax wrote:

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

rainzax wrote:

the argument, which has teeth, is that the Ranger can bypass prerequisites entirely (like with Improved Precise Shot) when selecting a feat via his Combat Style, so why not the Fighter?

I offer the counter-point that a ranger is limited to a specific tree of feats. For a fighter, whose only restriction is that it is a combat feat, I would keep all prerequisites in place.

i agree with you

master_marshmallow wrote:

Martial Flexibility offers you access to spontaneous feats that you qualify for. Only picking a certain number of feats changeable on the daily is weaker than Martial Flexibility.

all else being equal yes. but you are missing my question. why not have two mundane martial classes, one with more feats but less flexibility, one with less feats but more flexibility? consider the difference in play styles behind the Wizard and the Sorcerer. same principle. the biggest difference between ACG Brawler and your Fighter is flavor, not play style. my questions is: is there a place in the game for a prepared vs spontaneous feat user?

I think that the place in the game would shrink into nonexistence if the only difference in the classes was a prepared list of feats that cannot be changed vs a few feats that can. Class abilities notwithstanding of course.

The main point of my fighter fix is that it doesn't invent any new mechanics, and it uses rules already printed by paizo in conjunction to satisfy this very well sought out patch to the fighter class.

Your Vanican fighter idea is sound, and a nice addition to the game that exists now, but in two weeks this ability will be completely invalidated by the Brawler's Martial Flexibility and I think that is something you should consider.

[Ciaran Barnes]

The martial flexibility feature does look pretty nice. I think the fighter should have it.

[rainzax]

or something like it

[rainzax]

new language.

Bonus Feats:

Spoiler:

At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching higher levels, a fighter gains a greater degree of flexibility in selecting his bonus feats. For his 4th level bonus feat slot, he may select a different feat each day as his bonus feat. To do so, he must spend 10 minutes of preparation time practicing drills and doing exercises, after which he may select any combat feat whose prerequisites he meets to occupy the bonus feat slot. This change is permanent until he repeats the process. At 8th level, and again every four fighter levels, he gains another retrainable feat slot, until at 20th level he has a total of five. During the 10 minute preparation period, he may retrain up to his maximum number of prepared feats - even leaving a slot 'open' if he wishes - so long as each slot is retrained no more than once per day. This is an extraordinary ability.

...

[Ciaran Barnes]

Thats kind of neat. You'd have to work on the wording though.It feels kind of strange.