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Is it legal to have multiple ability modifiers apply to a single roll? For example, from the Heretic archetype of the Inquisitor we have Lore of Escape and from the Conversion Inquisition domain we have Charm of Wisdom.
Lore of Escape (Ex): At 1st level, the heretic uses every trick she knows to escape those now pursuing her. She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Stealth skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers. This ability replaces monster lore.
Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
If you have both of these do you actually get to add your Wisdom modifier twice?
On a rather unrelated note, what's up with the Inquisitor and adding Wisdom or just bonuses to random rolls that already have an ability tied to them? With the above two abilities, I see no reason not to multiclass into Inquisitor to make all your social skills dependent on Wisdom rather than Charisma (allowing you to buy down your Charisma for extra points).
Is it legal to have multiple ability modifiers apply to a single roll?
Yes, your own examples use Wis and Cha, two abilities applying to the same roll.
Can you apply the same ability modifier twice to the same roll?
No.
...Lore of Escape (Ex): At 1st level, the heretic uses every trick she knows to escape those now pursuing her. She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Stealth skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers...
There is nothing preventing getting your ability score added twice. See the Mindchemist Alchemist's Perfect Recall ability for a definite example. I think you are confusing ability modifiers with same type bonuses from different sources not stacking (like regular armor and Mage Armor). Bonus =/= modifier.
Would a Paladin 2/Lore Oracle (with sidestep secret) add their Charisma twice to their Reflex save?
No. Samasboy1 is correct.
You cannot add your ability score modifier twice to the same check. There are FAQ's making it more clear, but here's straight from the PRD.
Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
For Lore of Escape, the "normal ability score modifiers" for Bluff and Stealth are Charisma and Dexterity, not Wisdom.
The Mindchemist ability makes an explicit exception to this, "When making a Knowledge check, he may add his Intelligence bonus on the check a second time."
Ability score modifiers are definitely bonuses:
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
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Also in the case that is of interest to my characters. The Conversion Inquisition states that the Wisdom Modifier replaces the Charisma Modifier, and the Infiltrator ability Guileful Lore specifically states that it "adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Diplomacy skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers".
I suppose my next question is, where do stacking bonuses of ability scores occur that specifically lack the statement that they stack?
The game works on general rule, specific exception. Its safest to assume if no specific exception is provided (such as the mind chemist) then ability modifiers do not stack.
Note that a paladin's Divine Grace ability does not add her CHA bonus to saves; it adds an untyped bonus in an amount equal to her CHA bonus.
I don't believe that makes any difference. Were Divine Grace to say, "Add your Charisma Bonus (if any) to all saving throws", it would mean the same thing. However it would not be clear whether Charisma is added, or replacing the normal ability score. The current phrasing, clarifying it as a bonus gained, makes it exceedingly clear that you get to actually add the Charisma bonus on top of the rest.
Shouldn't hold clarity against the rules :)
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Note that a paladin's Divine Grace ability does not add her CHA bonus to saves; it adds an untyped bonus in an amount equal to her CHA bonus.I don't believe that makes any difference. Were Divine Grace to say, "Add your Charisma Bonus (if any) to all saving throws", it would mean the same thing. However it would not be clear whether Charisma is added, or replacing the normal ability score. The current phrasing, clarifying it as a bonus gained, makes it exceedingly clear that you get to actually add the Charisma bonus on top of the rest.
Shouldn't hold clarity against the rules :)
The semantics of the Divine Grace ability, though, make it an untyped bonus, and thus able to stack with other bonuses. This isn't holding anything against the rules, it's enabling the Paladin to stack Divine Grace with other bonuses.
Sidestep Secret and Divine Grace stack wonderfully.
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The Mindchemist ability makes an explicit exception to this, "When making a Knowledge check, he may add his Intelligence bonus on the check a second time."
Sorry to dredge but this came up in a discussion I had today
She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Stealth skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers.
This to me seems like it is written in the same intent as Mindchemist
She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Stealth skill checks in addition to her normal [charisma +/- whatever else] score modifiers.
charisma replaces wisdom for the modifier
She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Stealth skill checks in addition to her normal [wisdom +/- whatever else] score modifiers.
It could be said that this is specifically telling you to use it twice just like Mindchemist
I can also fully understand why some would think this falls under stacking rules.
Has this ever been officially addressed?