More than 2 Claw Attacks in PFS

[Hemano Gamma]

All righty then. I made an Oni-spawn Tiefling Shapeshifter Ranger, with the Claws form of the Maw or Claws alternate racial class feature. So he starts at lvl 1 with 2 claw attacks. My next 2 lvls are Alchemist giving me my 1st Discovery and my lvl 3 feat, for which I choose Vestigial Limb and Extra Discovery-Vestigial Limb. Still have just 2 Claw Attacks.

At Lvl 4 I get my 2nd lvl of shapeshifter Ranger, which gives me Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast) which says I gain 2 Primary claw attacks. It doesn't specify where these 2 extra claws grow from( ie. fingertips, toes or bone spurs from my butt cheeks), but for flavor I put them on the hands of my 2 Vestigial Limbs as I am stylizing my character after a girallon.

Then I am told I can't do this because the Vestigial Limb description says that they never grant extra attacks, even though its the aspect of the beast feat that is granting the extra 2 claw attacks. So to Sum up:

Level 1: 2 arms, 2 claws
Level 3: 4 arms, 2 claws
Level 4: 4 arms, 4 claws

As far as I can tell using RAW my build is legal. So aside from people just not liking my ability to stay on par damage-wise with an archer, but using melee, does it sound PFS legal?

[BigNorseWolf]

No.

The aspect of the beast merely changes your two existing arm attacks into claw attacks, its not giving you extra attacks.
You are getting your extra attacks out of your vestigial limbs, which it does not do.

This is also not pfs specific, its been hashed out a number of times on the rules boards.

The answer is no.

[Nefreet]

HERE is a recent 118 post thread from the Rules Forum on the matter, if you wish to understand both sides of the issue.

One side argues that the Vestigial Arms Discovery limits you to no more attacks than you would have gotten without them.

And the other side argues (as the OP of this thread does) that claw attacks gained from other sources supercede the Vestigial Arms limitation.

If you played at my table, I would not allow them to work together, but others may. As of right now, expect variation, and plan for games where you won't be able to get all the attacks you want.

[Claxon]

What BigNorseWolf said.

The limitation on vestigial arms says no, you cannot make extra attacks with these arms. This includes natural attacks.

Think of the question like this: If you did not have vestigial arms would you have these attacks to be able to make? If the answer is no, then you cannot make those attacks.

[Nefreet]

I'm still not sold 100% one way or the other. I had a strong opinion on the matter originally, but some of the other arguments are compelling. I only decide to rule against it at my PFS tables because I choose to go with the more conservative interpretation.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a couple posts. Please leave personal insults out of the conversation.

[blackbloodtroll]

Two arms? Two attacks?

Three arms? One attack only, and go screw yourself.

Expect this logic, and expect it shoved hard.

[Nefreet]

I believe it goes something like this, although feel free to correct me if I get it wrong BBT:

A 1st level Tengu Monk (as an example) has two arms, each ending in claws. As his 1st level feat, he grabs two-weapon fighting. This character can, at 1st level, perform an unarmed strike/strike/claw/claw/bite as a full attack action. The attack penalties would be -2/-2/-5/-5/-5. This is totally legal, and nobody disputes this.

By 3rd level that same Tengu has taken two levels of Alchemist, and has taken the Vestigial Arms discovery twice (once as his 3rd level feat, once as his actual discovery), and now has four arms. Two end in claws, and two don't.

BBT argues that this same alchemist can perform a dagger/dagger/claw/claw/bite as a full attack. The penalties are the same: -2/-2/-5/-5/-5.

Others argue that this character somehow lost two of the five attacks he had at 1st level.

(and the more I type this out, the more I'm leaning towards BBT's interpretation)

The tricky part comes at level 5, and I think this is where people start getting uppity. For either his 5th level feat, or his 4th level Discovery, that same Tengu can take Feral Mutagen. Now he has 4 arms, each ending in claws. If he does a full attack, he has zero attack penalties, because they are all primary natural attacks.

But, if all of the examples before this were kosher, why not now?

[blackbloodtroll]

If an ability gives you a bite, then it is that ability that give you this "extra" attack, not your head.