PACG online

[Nigri]

We wants it, precious, we needs it...

[Nigri]

No interest in an online version? I think it would be great!

[h4ppy]

Would love it. A nice Android/cross-platform interface would be great too.

[WesWagner]

It would probably take me about a half a year to prototype something like that in my evenings.

That is if it had to enforce the rules ... which I suspect is the point.

[Firedale2002]

One could program a VASSAL module, and just not release it to the public, but instead just use it for their own personal gaming group use, but that'd be skirting around copyrights, etc, and could get one in trouble if it gets out.

It'd be awesome if Paizo were willing to work with the community to enable a VASSAL module but disallow one set of cards to be used printed with faces (kinda like another company did with Elder Sign), that way it insures that at least one of the people playing owns the game, and thus, it'd be all well and good.

[h4ppy]

I'm no expert on this but I thought systems like Vassal and OCTGN existed because there's no copyright on the game mechanics as such?

The publisher has to agree to release the board/card art but, where this doesn't happen, text-only versions of the games do not fall foul of copyright law unless some of the terms/character names/etc are trade marked or copyrighted themselves.

It's what happened with Scrabulous on Facebook - they got in trouble because they used the official Scrabble (TM) board and had a name that sounded like Scrabble. They changed the board layout and their name then they were fine. The letters were still all worth the same number of points, they used the same dictionary, you had the same number of tiles on your rack, etc.

I've only very rarely dabbled with VASSAL and OCTGN but my understanding with those is that companies like Fantasy Flight Games allow their card art to be used something like 6 months after it's official release. The latest cards just show the card name (so you have to physically buy or otherwise look up what the cards actually do) but the older ones have the text and art.

[Vic Wertz]

h4ppy wrote:

It's what happened with Scrabulous on Facebook - they got in trouble because they used the official Scrabble (TM) board and had a name that sounded like Scrabble. They changed the board layout and their name then they were fine. The letters were still all worth the same number of points, they used the same dictionary, you had the same number of tiles on your rack, etc.

The simple* version of copyright and game mechanics is this: Actual game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, but the written expression of those game mechanics can be copyrighted (and, under US copyright law, they automatically are copyrighted).

So when it comes to "copying" Scrabble, a tile with a letter and a number on it can't be copyrighted, so as long as you rewrite the rules in your own words and avoid stepping on any trademarks, you can do it.

However, when it comes to games like the Pathfinder RPG or the Pathfinder RPG, or most Fantasy Flight games, or many, many games in our industry, things get tricky because the expression of the mechanics often *is* the mechanic. Which is to say, there's not an easy way to reproduce many of the mechanics without using the original copyrighted text. Which is to say if someone were to take all the cards, replace the art, and give them all new names, we would still have a very solid case that it infringes on our copyrights.

*Pretty much nothing related to copyrights is actually simple. Sorry!

[Vic Wertz]

Re: the original topic:

Paizo would be *very* interested in hearing a solid business plan from an experienced software publisher with an excellent reputation in the industry, and I'd frankly be surprised if we aren't approached by one in the future.

[Scribbling Rambler]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Re: the original topic:

Paizo would be *very* interested in hearing a solid business plan from an experienced software publisher with an excellent reputation in the industry, and I'd frankly be surprised if we aren't approached by one in the future.

Or possibly in the recent past, but not be willing/able to divulge things yet.

;)

[WesWagner]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Re: the original topic:

Paizo would be *very* interested in hearing a solid business plan from an experienced software publisher with an excellent reputation in the industry, and I'd frankly be surprised if we aren't approached by one in the future.

The largest problems with setting up a game like this is the overall philosophical architecture. In the past people would try to do things like write a central logic engine to "operate the game logic" as it were... which eventually turned into a Gordian knot.

Fortunately most modern game developers cut their teeth on game engines (like Unity and such) ... and learned to attach game logic to game objects and define a game via how those objects interact with the universe.

(as a mental exercise, think about what it would be like to write a logic engine for magic the gathering ... if you did not make it object oriented to the nth degree)

I think that there is an excellent business proposition in releasing the game in an online method on a properly staggered release schedule that would not cannibalize the traditional sales channels.

It also would probably kickstart (and ultimately greenlight) really easily which would significantly reduce the capital investment risk.

[WesWagner]

Vic Wertz wrote:

h4ppy wrote:

It's what happened with Scrabulous on Facebook - they got in trouble because they used the official Scrabble (TM) board and had a name that sounded like Scrabble. They changed the board layout and their name then they were fine. The letters were still all worth the same number of points, they used the same dictionary, you had the same number of tiles on your rack, etc.

The simple* version of copyright and game mechanics is this: Actual game mechanics cannot be copyrighted, but the written expression of those game mechanics can be copyrighted (and, under US copyright law, they automatically are copyrighted).

So when it comes to "copying" Scrabble, a tile with a letter and a number on it can't be copyrighted, so as long as you rewrite the rules in your own words and avoid stepping on any trademarks, you can do it.

However, when it comes to games like the Pathfinder RPG or the Pathfinder RPG, or most Fantasy Flight games, or many, many games in our industry, things get tricky because the expression of the mechanics often *is* the mechanic. Which is to say, there's not an easy way to reproduce many of the mechanics without using the original copyrighted text. Which is to say if someone were to take all the cards, replace the art, and give them all new names, we would still have a very solid case that it infringes on our copyrights.

*Pretty much nothing related to copyrights is actually simple. Sorry!

I think there is an old saw, solid mechanics without a strong theme will me a mediocre game .... a solid theme with poor mechanics will make a terrible game.

In order to get the results of PACG - you had to have both. That is why it is selling so well.

(Note BGG rankings as of today: Board Game Rank: 75
Thematic Rank: 5 )

I think this game would be nowhere near ranked 75th if it's theme was not so strong.

[Nigri]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Re: the original topic:

Paizo would be *very* interested in hearing a solid business plan from an experienced software publisher with an excellent reputation in the industry, and I'd frankly be surprised if we aren't approached by one in the future.

I've made a very informal enquiry with a friend whose employer fits the above description and will let people know.

[StMorpheus]

oh man, i would LOVE this on my android tablet. I think these kinds of games are perfect for a touch interface.