Silence Spell and Stealth checks

[izanami8770]

I can't seem to find anything on how the Silence spell affects Stealth checks. For example, if my bard casts Silence on my rogue, how does that affect the rogue's stealth check? If someone could direct me to a source or otherwise answer this question, it would be much appreciated.

Much obliged.

[Claxon]

RAW, there is no affect.

Humans in general rely much more on sight than any other sense. Perception of enemies should rely much more on sight than sound anyways. When using stealth, it would be presumed that characters are already moving in such a way as to generate as little sounds as they can already, as stealth integrated hide and move silently from 3.5. I would simply say if there was any sound they would normally generate that would betray their position it wouldn't. Basically if they were out of line of sight I would say a creature without special sense would not be able to detect them. If they are in line of sight, but hiding with stealth I would not add any bonus for being silent.

[BigNorseWolf]

add +10 and call it a day.

[Cevah]

izanami8770 wrote:

I can't seem to find anything on how the Silence spell affects Stealth checks. For example, if my bard casts Silence on my rogue, how does that affect the rogue's stealth check? If someone could direct me to a source or otherwise answer this question, it would be much appreciated.

Much obliged.

Forced Quiet:

With a gesture, you muffle sound around the target, making it unable to yell or otherwise make loud noises. This does not affect spellcasting by the target. The target can still use sonic effects, but the DC of these effects decreases by 2. The target gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against sonic effects. The target gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Stealth checks.

Forced quiet gives +4 Circumstance to Stealth & +2 DC vs. sonic.

Silence:

Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and Spell Resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.

Silence gives immunity to sonic.

Invisibility:

... Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving....

Invisibility gives +40 that drops to +20 when moving.

What happens when you move? You don't become more visible, just less quiet. Since that is worth a 20 point change, I would say Silence can give you +20 to Stealth. Against something that uses hearing as its main main detection, like a bat, I might give more.

/cevah

[Adamantine Dragon]

I would challenge the notion that the difference in bonus granted for invisibility when moving vs. not moving is entirely due to sounds made. I would suggest that the difference is intended to also factor in things like jostling items as you move, which could also betray the presence of an invisible creature.

I'd probably do as BNW suggests and give it a +10 and move on.

It is important to note that within the silence effect the rogue will hear nothing themselves, and that would include warnings from party members.

One other point of note perhaps. If you are the center of a 20' radius of silence, you are moving a 40 foot diameter sphere of silence around with you. That's a pretty big area to keep track of. As you move, anything you get within 20' of will suddenly notice an absolute lack of all sound. That alone will alert someone to your presence.

[Cevah]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I would challenge the notion that the difference in bonus granted for invisibility when moving vs. not moving is entirely due to sounds made. I would suggest that the difference is intended to also factor in things like jostling items as you move, which could also betray the presence of an invisible creature.

I'd probably do as BNW suggests and give it a +10 and move on.

It is important to note that within the silence effect the rogue will hear nothing themselves, and that would include warnings from party members.

One other point of note perhaps. If you are the center of a 20' radius of silence, you are moving a 40 foot diameter sphere of silence around with you. That's a pretty big area to keep track of. As you move, anything you get within 20' of will suddenly notice an absolute lack of all sound. That alone will alert someone to your presence.

My post was more to give a bracket for where the bonus should be. From a first level spell giving +4 to a second level spell giving +40 would be the limits. How much of Invisibility is silence? I don't know. Is the 20' radius a downside? Yes, it can often be easily noted where the first level spell is not.

I think +10 actually fits as a reasonable value. I think +20 is the best that could be argued.

As to jostling something, that would be a small visual and audio clue. Silence would defeat the audio, and the smallness would make the jostling be difficult to detect.

/cevah

Edit: note about jostling.

[lantzkev]

well we also (and creatures etc) all detect movement better than non-movement, although the biggest factor in this is the fact you're invisible so the +20 in that light for sound is totally believable.