Torch + Burn!Burn!Burn! + Fire Brand

[Yure]

I am currently playing a goblin alchemist, and I have been looking at some of the discoveries and feats I may want for the future. When I ran across these specifically, I began to wonder if this would work.

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Torch: 1d2+1(Fire Damage)

Burn!Burn!Burn!: You deal an extra 1d4 points of fire damage when you attack with fire from an alchemical or nonmagical source (such as with alchemical fire or torches) and gain a +4 competence bonus on Reflex saving throws made to avoid catching on fire or to put yourself out when on fire. Additional damage caused by this feat does not apply to magical attacks (such as an alchemist's bomb) or to splash damage.

Fire Brand (Su): An alchemist with this discovery can expend one daily bomb use to apply the bomb reagents to his weapon as a swift action. A weapon treated this way deals fire damage as if it had the flaming weapon special ability. At 10th level, the weapon is treated as if it had the flaming burst weapon special ability. The bomb reagents continue burning for 1 minute or until extinguished by dousing the weapon in water. An alchemist can use this ability with natural weapons, but he takes 1d6 points of fire damage per round for each natural weapon treated.
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I would like some feedback if this would be valid or not. In the Burn!Burn!Burn! feat it says it doesn't work with magical attacks (as in alchemist bombs), but that feat would be going of off the Fire Brand discovery, it would be going off the +1 Torch Fire Damage.

Opinions? Rulings?

[W. John Hare]

It is probably not valid.

Torch 1d2+1 (Fire)
Fire Brand makes it a 1d2+1d6 (Fire - magical)
Thus the Burn!Burn!Burn! doesn't come into play.

[Yure]

But the Flaming weapon quality adds 1d6. That means the torch would have it's original +1 Regular Alchemical Fire Damage...

[Movin]

Well lets see. short answer would be I really don't think it works like that unfortunately

Fire Brand (Su)

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.

Fire brand is a Supernatural ability. as in bold, supernatural abilities are magical.
Burnx3 relies on the weapon damage of the torch being non-magical.
Firebrand makes it magical and stops the interaction.

counter argument is that the application is magical but the effect is not. It uses the Alchemist Bomb class feature to get the effect.
however.
Bomb (Su)
Fire Brand (Su)

I can't really see any way to argue that the fire is not magical being that both effects used to gain the fire enhancement to the weapon are magical.

You would have a better chance to activate Burnx3 with a Fireforged weapon.

Fireforged Steel:

Fire-forged steel

Weapons crafted from fire-forged steel similarly channel heat away from the wearer; this does not grant the wielder energy resistance. Instead, the blade absorbs and channels heat to the parts of the weapon that contact enemies. If the weapon is exposed to 10 points or more of fire damage (such as from an opponent's fireball or by holding it in a campfire for 1 full round), the weapon adds +1d4 points of fire damage to its attacks for the next 2 rounds. If the wielder is wearing fire-forged armor and using a fire-forged weapon, this bonus damage increases to 1d6 points of fire damage and lasts for 4 rounds. This bonus damage does not stack with fire damage from weapon enhancements such as flaming.

though if someone came to me with this combination I would let it fly as I don't think I've ever seen someone make a torch into a primary weapon before and that would amuse me.

Another question to ask would be the effects of Burnx3 and a Tangleburn bag.

Tangleburn Bag:

Price 150 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

This sack contains tanglefoot bag materials and alchemical powders that burn at a high temperature. It functions like a tanglefoot bag, plus a direct hit on a creature deals 1d6 points of fire damage, and the creature must make a DC 20 Reflex save or catch on fire. If it catches on fire, for the next 2 rounds extinguishing the flames is a DC 25 Reflex save instead of a DC 15 save, and using water to extinguish the flames creates a burst of burning material equivalent to alchemist's fire making a direct hit on the target (including splash damage). After the initial 2 rounds, the flames may be extinguished as normal. Crafting this item is a DC 30 Craft (alchemy) check.

Specifically if you manage to nail the effected creature with water would the effective alchemists fire activate Burn x3?

[HaraldKlak]

I think it is valid.

Burn!Burn!Burn! doesn't trigger by Fire Brand, that is clear.

However it does trigger by a torch.

Using Fire Brand on a torch doesn't change the fact that it is an eligable weapon, since it still deals it's 1 point of non-magical fire damage.

That said, I doesn't seem that strong. The torch is going to deal d2+d4+d6+1+str damage, 8+str on average. It is an improvised weapons, so you'll need Catch Off Guard to be able to hit anything. Doable at lvl 3, it might be useful, but I expect it to become subpar pretty quickly thereafter.

[Umbranus]

You could have him worship Asmodeus and take the firebrand feat in addition to this. (most likely not really worth it)

Or you could dip into orcblooded sorc to count as orc and take the orc feat (from orcs of golarion) that heals you every time you deal fire damage to an opponent.

Both are not really strong options but they might be fun and fit the concept.

[Yure]

HaraldKlak wrote:

I think it is valid.

Burn!Burn!Burn! doesn't trigger by Fire Brand, that is clear.

However it does trigger by a torch.

Using Fire Brand on a torch doesn't change the fact that it is an eligable weapon, since it still deals it's 1 point of non-magical fire damage.

That said, I doesn't seem that strong. The torch is going to deal d2+d4+d6+1+str damage, 8+str on average. It is an improvised weapons, so you'll need Catch Off Guard to be able to hit anything. Doable at lvl 3, it might be useful, but I expect it to become subpar pretty quickly thereafter.

Well he is actually a goblin bombardier, so a torch goes really well with the roleplaying I guess. The archetypes gives the goblin the ability to use torches without the improved weapon pentalty. So it just makes it like a normal weapon.

But yeah as HaraldKlak said, Firebrand does not remove the NON-MAGICAL fire damage. It just adds 1d6 Magical fire. So I would think the Burn!Burn!Burn! Feat still triggers.

[tim doyle 268]

I'm just looking into this myself and my group came up with the thought of you using a fire forged metal torch that you would use an oil fueled fire with. Using the stats of a light mace for a goblin (1d4)+1 for fire and then add on the 1d4 for the fire forged metal and the 1d4 from burn×3. Or if you really want to go out on a limb you can take the feat from Inner Sea Gods called torch bearer. But our thoughts about it is that if you are an Alchemists you should know how to make and keep a non magical fire burning on a weapon that does more than a d2. I mean the Alchemists is the intelligent party member and for all intents and purposes an inventor.