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When pinning a target, are they still considered grappled? Or is pinned an upgraded version of grapple, and the grapple condition no longer applies? If the former, do the penalties from each condition stack?
One could easily interpret that you don't LOSE the grappled condition, insomuch as you GAIN the pinned condition. I'm looking to find out if this is true.
So if you have the grappled AND pinned conditions, do the penalties stack as I've shown below?
If grappled;
-4 Dex
-2 attack
-2 to CMB
Casting Denial
If pinned;
-4 to AC (which also applies to CMD)
-4 Dex
-2 attack
-2 to CMB
No Dex modifier to CMD (you still take Dex penalty if you have one)
Casting Denial, Greater
The only 'unstackables' are the -2's, -4 Dexterity, and the caster spellcasting denial.
Please FAQ.
(Thanks to Weaponbreaker, for coming up with the original concept.)
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Added to FAQ request, as I read "Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack." to mean if Pinned you use that condition and not Grappled if you are pinned.
Basically I read Grappled > Pinned in the same way as Fatigued > Exhausted and Shaken > Frightened > Panicked with the effects of the more severe condition replacing the effects of the lesser condition.
I can't believe you're supposed to stack the effects. It would be a silly way of doing it. Is there ever a case where you're pinned but not grappled?
I agree with DigitalMage on this. I can't see an instance where you can be pinned without being grappled. (Perhaps an enemy could have an ability that completely skips the grapple state, and after a single successful CMB roll, you're pinned, but I still see that as an upgraded -- or more severe form of -- grapple.)
Wich leads to problem - grappled give -4 penalty to DEX wich translates into -2 penalty on DEX based skills (Escape Artist) and -2 penalty to CMB of Tiny or smaller creatures (they use DEX instead of STR).
Pinned condition just denies DEX bonus to AC, but not gives penalty, making it easier for both ways (Escape Artist and CMB checks) to escape pin than escape grapple. It also gives less penalties to characters with 10 or less DEX.
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Pin: A creature grappling an opponent typically needs to make two combat maneuver checks to pin someone (one to grapple, the next to pin). If you're pinned, do you also need to succeed at two checks to escape, one for the grab and the other for the pin?
No. When a creature is pinned, it gains this more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack (as described in the pinned condition). While this means that you do not take both the penalties for both the grapple and the pin, this also means that pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it. For this reason you only need to succeed one combat maneuver or Escape Artist check to escape either a grapple or a pin.
—Stephen Radney-MacFarland, 06/07/11
Thanks Cheapy. Missed it somehow.
There are a ton of FAQs at this point. I can't blame ya! I had a page and a half FAQ thread ready to be posted when I remembered something about my question somewhere....and found it in the FAQ.
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Wich leads to problem - grappled give -4 penalty to DEX wich translates into -2 penalty on DEX based skills (Escape Artist) and -2 penalty to CMB of Tiny or smaller creatures (they use DEX instead of STR).
Pinned condition just denies DEX bonus to AC, but not gives penalty, making it easier for both ways (Escape Artist and CMB checks) to escape pin than escape grapple. It also gives less penalties to characters with 10 or less DEX.
Yep, but that isn't the biggest factor in making it easier to escape a Pin than escape a Grapple.
The biggest factor is that the opponent pinning you keeps the Grappled condition but also loses their Dex Bonus to Ac (and thus CMD), so their CMD already reduced by -2 for the -4 Dexterity Penalty is further reduced by any Dex Bonus (and they do stack if you read Ability Penalties as I do).
So BAB of +5, Strength of 14/+2 and Dexterity of 18/+4 provides a CMD of 21 normally, 19 when affected by the Grappled condition. When pinning an opponent CMD would be 15 - a much lower DC to beat to escape from!
And as you said, this is then compounded by the fact that the pinned person's Escape Artist check modifier is higher when Pinned than when Grappled.
There are a ton of FAQs at this point. I can't blame ya! I had a page and a half FAQ thread ready to be posted when I remembered something about my question somewhere....and found it in the FAQ.
Large FAQs aren't a problem provided they are easily navigable/searchable.
I should have looked before posting.
So, essentially, it's easier to escape a pin than a grapple?
Oy.