hi all,
this is the last character one of my player come up with,i feel he is quite powerfull,and quite the unkillable.i post here with a question:how do you GM deal with him?just in case i have missed something or i have forgotten a rule.
ok,here it is:
he is named Pook
lvl 13
goblin rog2/vivisectionist-mindchemist3/assassin8
stat(without items) 12 24 10 16 7 5
darkvision,trap finding (no allarm gliph),evasion+high ref (immune to aoe),high escape artist (against grapple),various poison skills,sneak attack ,truestrike(for damage)
death attack:10 +8lvl +3int +1 ability focus(death attack) +2 cognatogen +2 item band of intellect(+4) +1 item assassin dagger= 27 dc do or die at will.
and then there is stealth: HIPS (fairly op),dampen presence (feat,no blind sight),negate aroma (L1 extract,no scent),boots of soft step (super cheap magic item,negate tremorsense)
and the score:+7 dex +3 class +13 ranks +2 color thief (racial trait) +3 tumor familiar (cat) +4 racial +4 small size +4 stealthy feat +6 skill focus +8 chameleon discovery +5 reduce person (L1 extract) +2 item belt of dexterity +5 item cloak of elvenkind=+66.
so...if you ready action,he snipe (-20?lol!) glitterdust? -40...
you cant kill.
he for sure does not excell in dps,but with the maxed death attack he eats enemy controllers like candies...
i can forbid the goblin as a race,but then he can easily go halfling or gnome or whatever and just lose a couple points.and i say goblin were ok.plus i am amused by such a character,and i dont like to forbid stuff if a player come up with a clever and legal build.
Is he spending the 3 rounds required to watch an enemy before executing his sneak attack?
Also just because he's got good ref doesn't mean he's got good will and fort saves. Put him against a wizard with a stinking cloud or something similar that attacks a different save then reflex.
If the PCs are fighting against an evil syndicate make him well known. Have them enter a room covered in Powder in RAW flour lets you see where an invisible person is standing.
Powdered chalk, flour, and similar materials are popular with adventurers for their utility in pinpointing invisible creatures. Throwing a bag of powder into a square is an attack against AC 5, and momentarily reveals whether an invisible creature is there. A much more effective method is to spread powder on a surface (which takes 1 full round) and look for footprints.
Make a pair of eyes of the eagles for every enemy for that +5 bump to perception.
Throw them up against a bunch of barbarians. They have high Fort saves and uncanny dodge no flank for the rough to get his sneak attack/death attack. If they can see him even better.
Maybe put in another assassin against them. The BBEG sends a bunch of mooks to fight them and die with an assassin with just as high a sneak as him. After the fight when he's no longer sneaking the assassin makes an appearance. Don't do the kill just do the stun and then run away make them all fearful of the ever present Assassin who has been hired to toy with them who can and will kill them all at the drop of a hat.
I've got to run to work now though. If i think of anything else during the day I'll let you know tonight.
the flour is a good idea.does it automatically pinpoint?it can be countered with fly though,but for an encounter or 2 it should work
the stinky cloud is another great idea.there are so few fort aoe spells that i totally forgot about it.
and the barbarian will definitely be his nemesis.
and btw,in 3.5 u could sneak attack if you were 4 lvl higher.does it apply here?
It's entertaining, but cheesy. DOnt forget, he shouldnt be able to snipe though: the death attack specifies a melee attack.
Dont forget: stealth ends the moment you attack. And he cant get back into stealth until he conceals himself again. Since his powers CANT be used for sniping (has to be melee), he's going to get one good shot at an enemy before being revealed. Greater invisibility would solve his problem, but at that point he doesnt need such an obscene amount of stealth.
I'll admit, I tend to prefer "balanced" characters, so when I see a character that's so heavily specialized I'm like... oh, that guy is going to get hurt. Especially in surprise rounds. Also, whenever I see characters with sub-8 stats, I always imagine they have horrible defects (like, too low wisdom and you constantly dont notice things and bump your head, or too low charisma and you have something like tourettes (IE, constantly swearing at people))
Also: you can sneak attack from the first level you get sneak attack dice. Check the d20pfsrd, I cant remember off the top of my head.
yeah .... he's got one trick pony requiring 3 rounds of observation for a save or die.
Well it's not very powerful. Usually after 3 rounds the combat is either over or you're all dead specially at 13th level or higher.
I also concur to the other guy suggestions.
I have a party with 2 rogues and a ninja and they hated the bunch of barbarians I threw at them. One of them is a gob rogue. Very stealthy but well you can't have it all
For the 4 lvls higher it also apply. But that means throw barbarians higher level than lvl 9.
Remember also that undead and a lot others like constructs are immune to death effects.
and with such a low wisdom he's bound to be charmed, dominated and so on.
So no it's not cheesy at all.
Well, I meant cheesy in the sense that the player manipulating the system. Doesnt prevent one from having weaknesses though. A hell of a lot of them. You know what, I'll stop treating it as cheesy, there are just too many ways this guy can fail despite his high stealth. As a DM, you should warn the player that he is significantly weakening everything else for the sake of stealth. Note: If it wasnt for the low charisma, he could bluff to get back into stealth. Oh well. The whole fact that he isnt able to snipe his death attack kinda kills the concept.
Barbarians with improved uncanny dodge
Anyone with deflect arrow, especially if the have Defensive Strategist (not flat footed).
Fog spells or deeper darkness will even the playing field. Sure, they can't see him, now he can't see them.
he does not death attack at range.the combat usually go like this:
party stays back,he scouts,finds the enemy boss,waits 3 rounds,death attacks him melee,move action+hips,then party arrives to finish the job.at this point he is sniping.
it is important to note that a cr 14 red dragon,has a fort of +16,that means one time in two he is dead before the fight starts.
he does not need bluff,since hide in plain sight makes it obsolete.
there is no surprise round because he goes around stealthed all the time.he is the one who is getting surprise rounds.maybe i can throw an assassin like will prat suggested,then yes,it should works.(its a one timer though,then the party strats using flour aswell)
his perception is not awesome,true,but neither that low.maxed rank+alertness (familiar)+extract and he is at +18,that is not that bad.
other saves are pretty low (despite iron will),the problem is that i can not target him.this is why i think aoe vs fort is a good tactics.this wont kill him though,but can control him a bit.
and of course,he does have tourette,but he is a goblin,so it is normal,he is not supposed to be the peoples person.
anyways,i think the barbarian will get the job done.
Lots of archers with heartseeker weapons they just need to target the right square.
Enemies are always in groups, never alone.
If he attempts to melee, readied actions for when he attacks.
Don't allow him to make a stealth check with a 5ft step.
Wind wall to negate ranged attacks.
Buff NPCs fort saves to increase the chance of saving successfully against death attacks.
Enforce the rule that he must be with 10ft of dim light, assuming he got hide in plain sight from his assassin levels.
Permanent light spells. EVERYWHERE! There is no longer any dim lighting inside. He can't use Hide in Plain Sight if he is farther away then 10ft.
Don't go heavy handed with the last one, I am being a bit hyperbolic.
Also, magical traps. He probably isn't expecting them. Despite being a rogue he has built for stealth, not to disable traps. Nothing like a symbol of death trap. Or 10.
Does Death Ward protect against the Assassin ability? If so, that might help (not all the time, but for certain badguys, especially if they know the party's rep).
It would appear no, the Assassin's Death Attack is not protected against by Death Ward. Death Ward says:
The subject gains a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects.
The Assassin's Death Attack is listed as (Ex) which is extraordinary, which is not even questionablly counting as "magical". It functions in an area of antimagic where supernatural and spell like abilities do not.
First point, this guy built his character for this. Tuned it specifically to be this. Taking it away from him is like taking spellcasting away from a wizard. So let him have his little victories and enjoy them. He earned it through this build, and really, it's just about all he can do.
Second point, despite the first point, he shouldn't be able to destroy every encounter all the time. Some monsters, especially bosses or other interesting encounters, might be clever enough to prevent this kind of thing. So definitely prevent it some of the time, particularly for fights that need to be interesting.
Third point, Death Attack doesn't work against everything. Anything that is immune to Sneak Attack, Precision Damage, or Death Effects is immune to this attack. Anything the assassin cannot study (invisible, deeper darkness, etc.) cannot be death attacked. Anything that has concealment cannot be death attacked because it cannot be sneak attacked. Etc.
Fourth point, just getting to the victim can be challenging. A bright room can totally defeat the assassin's HiPS and nobody, not evens someone with his high Stealth, can use Stealth in plain sight. So, an enemy in a bright room will only have to beat a DC 0 Perception check to see the assassin coming, as long as he's more than one move action away.
Fifth point, if the victim can't see the threat coming, maybe he can sense the assassin in another way, in which case he cannot use his Death Attack. Things like Scent, Tremorsense, and Blindsight can be greatly helpful here. Even a CR 1 Orc might have a pet dog with the Scent ability, and that might be enough for the orc to sense the threat.
Final point, magic, magic, magic. If this guy can get a skill over 60, then clearly, we're at that point in the campaign where monsters and other bad guys can use abilities that require DC 60+ skills. For example, when the assassin is sneaking up and studying the target, will he find that DC 66 trap? You know, the one that disintegrates the assassin instantly when it goes off? Disintegrate, Death, heck, even a Hold Person trap combined with an Alarm spell (silent version) will paralyze the assassin long enough for the bad guy to walk up and Coup De Grace and put and end to his shenanigans - his WILL save doesn't look too high, but heighten the spell trap to set the save DC to something appropriately hard (the assassin's Death Attack has a DC of 27 so any traps he he encounters with a similar DC seems quite fair - how often will he make a DC 27 WILL save). Do this a few times, and maybe he won't be so eager to scout ahead so often.
Is that final point too unfair?
Not at all. If the players are going to use abilities that create DCs for the enemy up into the 60s, then there is no reason for them to expect the GM to be unable to use the same level of challenge. In fact, I think the players SHOULD EXPECT THE GM TO DO EXACTLY THAT. It's a game, it should be challenging, and if the players can achieve a certain level of difficulty then clearly they had better be ready to face the same level of difficulty.
And it's not unfair to insta-kill the PCs when those same PCs are using insta-kill abilities on the monsters. Again, if the players can achieve a certain level of destructive power, then they should expect the GM to use the same level of destructive power.
i agree with everything,except the special senses wich he has covered,anyway it does not change the sense of what you are saying.
my next question now is,how can i build a dc 66 cr 13ish legal trap?sounds like a good challenge..i will work on it.
Who said anything about CR13?
An encounter at +4 levels above the party's ECL is "Epic" but usually considered survivable. Furthermore, I find that CR vs. ECL gets less meaningful at higher levels. Even furthermore, if characters are "optimized" or "min-maxed", it's almost always necessary to raise the CR even more just to challenge them.
So I would think challenging this party with a CR 18 or 19 encounter is more than fair, at least some of the time.
The simplest way is just to use lots of monsters. Throw a dozen CR 11 monsters at them - he might Death Attack one of them, but then it's a free for all with the rest of them.
Or, use a CR 16 trap to protect a CR 16 bad guy.
Or even use a CR 18 trap in the hallway so it's a separate encounter.
These are just starter ideas.
Now, you won't build a trap with a save DC of 66, but maybe a Perception DC of 66 would be fair (apples to apples, since the PC has a 66 Skill, then requiring a 66 skill to challenge him is fair). He has a Death Attack ability that instantly kills with a save DC of 27, so it's fair to use traps that instantly kill him with a save DC of 27 (just don't pick REF saves unless you want him to survive most of them easily).
You cannot, by RAW, get a trap with a Perception DC of 66. At least I don't think so. By RAW, the magical trap upper limit is 34 DC. I don't do this kind of thing much (I just make what I want and don't worry about construction rules) so maybe there are skills, feats, spells, or items that can help. Seems to me that building a trap with masterwork or magical tools should help you build a better trap, but I don't know of any rules for that. It also seems like hiring a master trapsmith with tons of skills, feats, etc., all geared to building a good trap, should help with making better traps. Seems to me that feats like Spell Focus and other abilities like school specialization should be able to help. None of that is RAW, at least not that I know of. I don't know if there are RAW things like this to bypass that hard-coded cap of 34.
Hold Person, heightened to level 9:
Spell Level 9 is +9 CR, Save DC is 19 + INT/WIS of the caster, he only needs a 26 to create a DC 27 trap. Perception DC is over 30 so +3 CR, Disable can be really low, under 20, since nobody will ever find it if the DC is in the 60s, but heck, why not set the disable DC into the 60s as well. Final CR is only 15 so far.
Swap out the Hold Person for Power Word (Stun, Blind, or Kill) or a Trap the Soul, or any other really killer high level spell (without a REF save) - make sure someone is nearby to kill the rogue after the power word stuns or blinds him).