Good Afternoon. Zephyo here!
The whole idea behind multiclassing and taking a prestige class is to create a fun character with an concept that is better than the sum of it's parts. However, the system is very punishing for people who chose to specialize their character, and assumes that characters don't bother to keep practicing what they've already acquired
For example, with a Magus 6/ Rogue 4/ Arcane Trickster 10, the character caps his Arcane Pool at 3+ Int and can only enchant his weapon to +2, and his Trapfinding bonus caps at 2, and his Trap Sense is a paltry 1. These skills, essential to the core of their classes mechanisms, are entirely crippled. And to reference, a Magus 20 has an Arcane Pool of 10 + Int and can grant a +5 enhancement bonus, and a Rogue 20 maintains a Trapfinding bonus of +10 and a Trap Sense of +6. Clearly, the multiclass will never keep up; they just aren't designed to support the abilities they acquire.
Thus my idea, the Prestige Supplement Clause: Levels in a Prestige Class stack with the Classes that qualify the character for the Prestige to determine the effects of (Su) or (Ex) Class Abilities he or she already possesses. Spells per day remains unaffected. You cannot stack Prestige class levels.
Prestige Classes always have Requirements. The Arcane Trickster, for example, requires the character to be: nonlawful; possess Ranks in key skills; be able to cast any 2nd Level spell along with Mage Hand; and Sneak Attack with at least 2d6 die. A Magus 4/Rogue 3 can meet all of these requirements, so when the first level in Arcane Trickster is taken, the abilities this character has already learned will continue to grow as they are designed to do so.
So, the Magus 6/Rogue 4/Arcane Trickster 10 from before had his class abilities limited to levels 6 and 4, respectively. But now, for the purpose of his acquired class abilities, he is a Magus 16/Rogue 14:
|+| The Arcane Trickster's Arcane Pool is now a healthy 8 +Int Mod. He can expend a pool point to give his weapon a +4 Enhancement Bonus, or spend some of the bonus on weapon enchantments.
|+| His Trapfinding, on the other hand, is now a hearty +7 bonus, and his Trap Sense is a +4. Not full Rogue, but pretty classy all in all.
I feel that this Clause lets multiclassing characters keep pace with their fuller progression variants, as well as keeping Archetypes open and appealing to those looking to zest their characters further. And the way it is written, it works just as well for a character with two base classes as it does one. To conclude, it seems ridiculous that multiclass heroes stop practicing the skills they've already acquired once they've decided to attempt something new. Thanks for your time!
That kind of works for class mixing prestige classes like hte arcane trickster (assuming they dont gain new abilities, just scale already gained ones). The problem is not all classes are like that. Some classes directly build on a single class. A duelist for instance, can build directly on a single class fighter, giving him abilities that work with his fighter abilities.
In the end the better solution for pathfinder is to have a class that is designed to mix rogue and mage, as opposed to mashing the two together independently.
The problem is not all classes are like that. Some classes directly build on a single class. A duelist for instance, can build directly on a single class fighter, giving him abilities that work with his fighter abilities.
This actually works well under the Clause. Let's feel out a Weapon Master Fighter 10/Duelist 10 - those archetypes seem to blend well. At Tenth Level, a Weapon Master Fighter has:
1). Weapon Guard for Bravery. +1 to CMD against disarm and sunder with chosen weapon, +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd (+3 at level 10)
2). Weapon Training for Armor Training. +1 to Hit and Damage rolls, +1 for every four levels beyond third (+2 at Level 10)
3). Reliable Strike for (Old) Weapon Training 1. Reroll an attack, crit confirm, damage, or miss chance roll as an Immediate action 1/day for every 5 levels (2 uses at level 10)
4). Mirror Move for (Old) Weapon Training 2. Gain an insight bonus to AC equal to Weapon Training Bonus when attacked by chosen weapon (+2 at level 10)
These abilities aren't bad; stacks with the Duelist abilities fairly well, but are capped to level 10.
Now, once more, the Prestige Supplement Clause: Levels in a Prestige Class stack with the Class(es) that qualifies the character for the Prestige Class, to determine the effects of (Su) or (Ex) Class Abilities he or she already possesses. Spells per day remains unaffected. You cannot stack Prestige class levels.
A Weapon Master Fighter alone can qualify a character for the Duelist Prestige. By the Clause, taking Duelist as a Weapon Master will continue to progress the four abilities you've acquired so far:
1). Weapon Guard. +5 Against Disarm and Sunder at level 18
2). Weapon Training. +5 to Hit and Damage rolls at Level 19
3). Reliable Strike. 4/Day at level 20
4). Mirror Move. +5 Insight AC Bonus vs chosen Weapon
Now you're cooking with some fire (since you're a duelist, you'll probably be facing the same weapon more often than not). Choose your flavor of dueling, and go to town.
Class/Prestige, Base/Class/Prestige - the Clause addresses both build types. Multiclasses that Prestige aren't as powerful as their full-bodied counterparts, but aren't going to be completely incompetent when it comes to the task, and make up for it with a specialized skillset. On the other hand, you have the Class/Prestige that trades out their later skills but enjoys the full power of the skills he's started with, and can build upon them with a good choice of prestige.
Post Note: The language did need a bit of polish. Changed 'Classes' to 'Class(es)' to note that you don't need multiple classes to take advantage of the Clause. Will write as such from here on.
The way I'd solve the perceived problem is thus:
For each character class a character possesses, they may add 1/2 of their other class levels (rounded down) to their existing class level, to determine their effective class level when qualifying for feats, class abilities or other such effects. This includes, but is not limited to, rogue talents, rage powers, caster level, oracle revelations, etc. This does not grant the character any additional abilities or spellcasting that would have been achieved had the character remained a single class (ie, no new spells known, spells per day, new rogue talents, new revelations, etc).
Effectively, this would allow a Magus 4 / Paladin 2 to do the following:
1) Count as a Level 5 magus when determining their Arcane Pool ability and he would count as a level 5 magus when choosing a new magus arcana. The Magus would NOT gain the bonus feat for the fifth level of Magus, as his actual level is still 4.
2) Count as a Level 4 paladin when determining lay on hands uses per day and could smite 2/day as he counts as a 4th level paladin. The Paladin would not gain Aura of Courage, Divine Health or a mercy, as his actual Paladin level is 2.
3) The Magus would cast spells with a caster level of 5 but would NOT gain the spells known or spells per day of a 5th level magus.
I quite like the idea, but it is going to be damned hard to generalise. I think a lot of people will inherently oppose because of the fear of returning to the times of 3.5, where base classes had little value.
There are a few concerns on defining it:
1) How do you define "qualifying" classes:
Example: The horizon walker, a very cool prestige class, that can be entered into by a bunch of classes. Which classes would "qualify" for the continued growth
-Would a ranger's animal companion continue growth? Would archetype abilities like freeboter's quarry continue to scale?
-Would a barbarian's rage duration continue to grow?
2) Which abilities would qualify?
Would it be mainly "+X per Y class levels" powers?
3) What about vaguely related abilities?
A good case is the "skyseeker" prestige class (sunseeker in the d20pfsrd): it's clearly intended for a ranger, but it has nothing to do with, let's say, the animal companion ability. Should it still scale?
I seriously wish it worked that way (especially for animal companions/ familiars), but it I dont know how many GMs would allow it. I'd need to see a bit of experimentation before allowing it myself.
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Its a stretch but in later editions I would recommend the equivalent of monastic training for other classes.
However my arcane trickster is not a magus or rogue. Its an effective pathfinder society character with skills, magic, combat, minor healing, survivability, and stealth. When it runs into an unknown group of 5 others I rarely have any issues.
The way I'd solve the perceived problem is thus:
For each character class a character possesses, they may add 1/2 of their other class levels (rounded down) to their existing class level, to determine their effective class level when qualifying for feats, class abilities or other such effects. This includes, but is not limited to, rogue talents, rage powers, caster level, oracle revelations, etc. This does not grant the character any additional abilities or spellcasting that would have been achieved had the character remained a single class (ie, no new spells known, spells per day, new rogue talents, new revelations, etc).
I haven't played enough Pathfinder to justify adding ten effective levels to a character by level 20. I just thought that it's kinda silly to have abilities that didn't do anything effective.
-Would a ranger's animal companion continue growth? Would archetype abilities like freeboter's quarry continue to scale?
-Would a barbarian's rage duration continue to grow?
The animal companion would grow, as would the rage durations. These are the skills these characters have picked up, and it's not like they're being put on a shelf and left to gather dust.
There are a few concerns on defining it:
1) How do you define "qualifying" classes?
2) Which abilities would qualify?
Would it be mainly "+X per Y class levels" powers?3) What about vaguely related abilities?
1). If the Prestige needs only one class, then it'll only count toward one class. Also, the Clause doesn't cover spellcasting improvement; it just continues to boost class abilities. So that is still a restriction of sorts.
2) Yeah, but I did put (EX) and (SU) powers. You can't twist Uncanny Dodge into it's improved version, but generally if the improvements are all listed as one ability, then it's safe to say it will be affected. A Ranger will continue to get his favored enemies, But a Magus cannot go from Spell Combat to Improved Spell Combat
3). In your case, Favored Enemy is a Ranger Class ability, and so is your Combanion The beastie continues to improve, as would a familiar.
If you do get a chance to test it, I'd be thankful for the input. Thanks for your questions!
Its a stretch but in later editions I would recommend the equivalent of monastic training for other classes.
However my arcane trickster is not a magus or rogue. Its an effective pathfinder society character with skills, magic, combat, minor healing, survivability, and stealth. When it runs into an unknown group of 5 others I rarely have any issues.
I'd like to get a snapshot if I could. I'd like to see what kind of BaB you're reaching so I'd know the goal for effective combat. Are you using Empowered Truestrike for +30?
The way I'd solve the perceived problem is thus:
For each character class a character possesses, they may add 1/2 of their other class levels (rounded down) to their existing class level, to determine their effective class level when qualifying for feats, class abilities or other such effects. This includes, but is not limited to, rogue talents, rage powers, caster level, oracle revelations, etc. This does not grant the character any additional abilities or spellcasting that would have been achieved had the character remained a single class (ie, no new spells known, spells per day, new rogue talents, new revelations, etc).
I haven't played enough Pathfinder to justify adding ten effective levels to a character by level 20. I just thought that it's kinda silly to have abilities that didn't do anything effective.
I think you don't understand. DeathlessOne proposes a solution that is in line with some in-game mechanics already in place for certain pretige classes. To generalize it to most or all class features that are level dependent abilities and qualification for new choices is probably a nice fix for some combos that fall short at the moment. But it's not game-breaking. And it's not 10 effective levels, it's more like half the bonus you propose to grant via your Clause, or maybe i misundertood the way reacted to his post.
I think your solution, your Clause, is too much.
On a side note, i wish there was a way to make Ad&d style multiclass. Maybe impose a slow track ++ for 3 classes combo, slow track for 2 classes combo, and fast track for single class characters. No prestige classes. There might need some HP tweaking, and possibly bab/saves/skill pts progressions tweaks needed. So yeah, when thinking about it, there is no easy way haha
On a side note, i wish there was a way to make Ad&d style multiclass. Maybe impose a slow track ++ for 3 classes combo, slow track for 2 classes combo, and fast track for single class characters. No prestige classes. There might need some HP tweaking, and possibly bab/saves/skill pts progressions tweaks needed. So yeah, when thinking about it, there is no easy way haha
Well, I've seen similar things mentionned as "gestalt games". I'll admit, multiclassing is one of those things that worked surprisingly well in 2E. A fighter/cleric could be quite the terror, as could a fighter/druid.
And to respond to zephyo: I'm a fairly new player, though I hope to start a campaign next january. I'll try this method out, but I wont have any feedback for a while.