Divine Hunter Paladin who violates his Code of Conduct Question

[Arassuil]

I'm not sure if this can even be answered, but I'd figure I'd ask anyways!

Ex-Paladins wrote:

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate

Divine Hunter Paladin Archetype wrote:

Precise Shot: A divine hunter gains Precise Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces her Heavy Armor Proficiency.

If said Paladin violated his/her code of conduct, would she lose Precise Shot or keep it?

Argument For Losing Precise Shot:
Only thing kept is weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies. Everything else is lost.

Argument Against Losing Precise Shot:
Since Precise Shot replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency, and a Paladin keeps all weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies, he/she would keep Precise Shot.

(Mainly asking for something like PFS, should it ever come up)

[DM_Blake]

It looks like the paladin loses it. Once you replace the Heavy Armor Proficiency with a new Class Feature (Bonus Feat: Precise Shot), it is not longer a proficiency, it is now a class feature. Class features are lost.

Harsh, but that looks to be the way it's worded.

[James Risner]

Entilzha wrote:

(Mainly asking for something like PFS, should it ever come up)

In a PFS game, I'd rule he loses it. Mainly because it isn't a weapon/armor proficiency, so it is lost.

[Arassuil]

Thanks DM Blake & James, for your opinion.

If I had to guess, I'd probably say that the RAW is that such a Paladin would lose Precise Shot, simply because it's a class feature. As for RAI, I don't know.

So, I'll just go with that. Thanks again.

[Scavion]

I've never heard losing access to a feat. How does a Paladin lose access to a feat? He can't shoot accurately anymore? Instead of training in heavy armor you spent that time aiming with a bow?

This sounds a bit ridiculous.

[Kazaan]

It's because the feat is granted by the Paladin class in this case. Remember that just because an archetype replaces some class ability doesn't mean that the new ability "counts as" the old ability. Divine Hunter replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency with a specific feat. The Vanilla Paladin would not lose Heavy Armor Proficiency if he falls, but the replacement feat in this case is not a weapon, armor, or shield proficiency. The Paladin, in this case, has lost faith that a divine hand is guiding his shots.

Another example would be the Holy Tactician archetype which gains a bonus Teamwork Feat at certain levels. If he falls, the Holy Tactician would lose access to those feats.

[Scavion]

Kazaan wrote:

It's because the feat is granted by the Paladin class in this case. Remember that just because an archetype replaces some class ability doesn't mean that the new ability "counts as" the old ability. Divine Hunter replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency with a specific feat. The Vanilla Paladin would not lose Heavy Armor Proficiency if he falls, but the replacement feat in this case is not a weapon, armor, or shield proficiency. The Paladin, in this case, has lost faith that a divine hand is guiding his shots.

So now we have psuedo-feats that are attached to classes? And losing said class makes us unlearn the feat? What if I retrain precise shot and gain a new feat instead? Would I lose that feat if I killed a puppy in cold blood?

[LazarX]

Scavion wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

It's because the feat is granted by the Paladin class in this case. Remember that just because an archetype replaces some class ability doesn't mean that the new ability "counts as" the old ability. Divine Hunter replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency with a specific feat. The Vanilla Paladin would not lose Heavy Armor Proficiency if he falls, but the replacement feat in this case is not a weapon, armor, or shield proficiency. The Paladin, in this case, has lost faith that a divine hand is guiding his shots.

So now we have psuedo-feats that are attached to classes? And losing said class makes us unlearn the feat? What if I retrain precise shot and gain a new feat instead? Would I lose that feat if I killed a puppy in cold blood?

You really shouldn't plan on playing a Paladin with the intent of having it fall as part of your character build.

[Scavion]

LazarX wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

It's because the feat is granted by the Paladin class in this case. Remember that just because an archetype replaces some class ability doesn't mean that the new ability "counts as" the old ability. Divine Hunter replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency with a specific feat. The Vanilla Paladin would not lose Heavy Armor Proficiency if he falls, but the replacement feat in this case is not a weapon, armor, or shield proficiency. The Paladin, in this case, has lost faith that a divine hand is guiding his shots.

So now we have psuedo-feats that are attached to classes? And losing said class makes us unlearn the feat? What if I retrain precise shot and gain a new feat instead? Would I lose that feat if I killed a puppy in cold blood?

You really shouldn't plan on playing a Paladin with the intent of having it fall as part of your character build.

I don't. I have never seen a paladin fall and I hope I never do because it's a sign of a crappy DM whose using the class against the player. I don't believe in situations of fall or fall either. The only time I would consider it to be interesting is if the player and dm were coordinating it.

[LazarX]

Scavion wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

It's because the feat is granted by the Paladin class in this case. Remember that just because an archetype replaces some class ability doesn't mean that the new ability "counts as" the old ability. Divine Hunter replaces Heavy Armor Proficiency with a specific feat. The Vanilla Paladin would not lose Heavy Armor Proficiency if he falls, but the replacement feat in this case is not a weapon, armor, or shield proficiency. The Paladin, in this case, has lost faith that a divine hand is guiding his shots.

So now we have psuedo-feats that are attached to classes? And losing said class makes us unlearn the feat? What if I retrain precise shot and gain a new feat instead? Would I lose that feat if I killed a puppy in cold blood?

You really shouldn't plan on playing a Paladin with the intent of having it fall as part of your character build.

I don't. I have never seen a paladin fall and I hope I never do because it's a sign of a crappy DM whose using the class against the player. I don't believe in situations of fall or fall either. The only time I would consider it to be interesting is if the player and dm were coordinating it.

Keep in mind that there are some crappy Paladin players out there as well. For my own viewpoint I do believe that there are ways to discipline paladins that form a spectrum between no action and complete fall from the class, which will vary on the offense.

[James Risner]

Scavion wrote:

What if I retrain precise shot and gain a new feat instead? Would I lose that feat if I killed a puppy in cold blood?

First, you can't retrain it (there is no choice.) Second, if you did arguably it would be lost.

LazarX wrote:

Keep in mind that there are some crappy Paladin players out there as well.

Not sure crappy is the right word, but certainly are some who ignore the code and lie, steal, kill, and cheat. Then wonder why their Paladin powers stop working. I've had home games and at least 3 separate Paladins lost their powers by doing illegal or evil acts and wonder why I took away their powers.