Let's say I have a room with two zombies in it and the room is closed. If a player walks up to open the door and there are zombies right there on the other side - what happens?
Can the zombies take a 5' step and slam the player?
Or does initiative happen then?
Is this consider a surprise round? Neither party aware of each other before the door was opened.
In this situation there isn't really a surprise round so just roll inits.
Had the party listened at the door, heard a zombie moan and then kicked in the door... then the zombies may be surprised and the party gets a surprise round.
Door opens.
Both sides become aware of the other, no surprise round.
Roll initiative (assuming one side is hostile).
I would call opening the door the surprise round, and (assuming none of the people or zombies heard anything, and are therefore all unaware) go straight to regular initiative.
If there are attacks and/or tactical movement involved, rolling initiative is a goood idea. This is especially true if not doing so will end up detrimental to the PCs, as they will likely get cranky.
Wow thanks for the prompt responses! Four replies in under ten minutes :)
I will have them roll init if no ones listens at door. If they stand outside the door for a prolonged period of time talking, I may prepare the zombies to position themselves better.
Since this is a Rules Questions forum, here are the relevant rules:
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
So in the OP's scenario, there were no combatants who would satisfy the first rule "When a combat starts, if you are aware of your opponents" - no combatant was aware of their opponents. So no Surprise Round. Roll Initiative as soon as the door opens and the PCs see the Zombies (and vice versa).
To respond to the OP's last post, note the final sentence of what I quoted: "Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks." This means that, even if the PCs stand around talking, the zombies should not be allowed to "position themselves better" unless they make their perception check to hear the talking PCs.
Hearing a clearly spoken conversation is DC 0 but hearing a whispered conversation is DC 15. Listening through a closed door is +5 to those DCs. Every 10' of distance adds +1 to the DCs. So if the zombies are right inside the door and the PCs are right outside the door, and everyone is talking like they're at a party, then the zombies need a DC of 5 to hear the PCs. But if the PCs are whispering, which is usually default unless they're idiots, then the DC is 20. And if either party is more than 5' away from the door, then the DC is at least 21.
Since typical zombies have a Perception of 0 (WIS 10, no skill ranks), it is impossible for them to hear a whispered conversation through a door as long as there is at least 10' total feet between the zombie and the nearest PC.
The way I do it based on my understanding of the rules :
Group A and Group B
Situations
1) Group A aware of Group B, Group B unaware of Group A.
2) Group A and B both aware of each other (and know combat is likely)
3) Group A and B both unaware of each other
4) Group A and B both aware of each other (but neither side is expecting combat)
How Handled
1) Surprise Round - Only those aware can act. Ambusher's may get a circumstance bonus to Initiative for Surprise Round at GM discretion
2) No surprise round
3) Everyone is surprised, no surprise round, roll initiative normally
4) Everyone but the person initiating combat makes perception roll to realize combat has started. Anyone surprised by the start of combat can't act in Surprise Round.
From the OPs situation, as posted, this would be either situation 3 (most likely) or situation 1 (if one side or the other knows about the other group).
The way I do it based on my understanding of the rules :
Group A and Group B
Situations
1) Group A aware of Group B, Group B unaware of Group A.
2) Group A and B both aware of each other (and know combat is likely)
3) Group A and B both unaware of each other
4) Group A and B both aware of each other (but neither side is expecting combat)How Handled
1) Surprise Round - Only those aware can act. Ambusher's may get a circumstance bonus to Initiative for Surprise Round at GM discretion
2) No surprise round
3) Everyone is surprised, no surprise round, roll initiative normally
4) Everyone but the person initiating combat makes perception roll to realize combat has started. Anyone surprised by the start of combat can't act in Surprise Round.From the OPs situation, as posted, this would be either situation 3 (most likely) or situation 1 (if one side or the other knows about the other group).
4 was always the murkiest one. If your party is talking with a group of peaceful villagers, then one person in the conversation (either villager or PC) just up and socks another in the face, is that the surprise round? Can the PC's even "perceive" it in time (20th level rogue and similar superhuman abilities notwithstanding)?
If your party is talking with a group of peaceful villagers, then one person in the conversation (either villager or PC) just up and socks another in the face, is that the surprise round? Can the PC's even "perceive" it in time (20th level rogue and similar superhuman abilities notwithstanding)?
Some class abilities allow you to always attack in the surprise round, so someone with these abilities should be able to use them, even if he doesn't start the fight - the attacker and anyone with these abilities get to act in the surprise round.
As for the rest, this is open to GM interpretation. He might allow a perception check. Maybe it represents noticing that the guy is shifting his balance as he prepares to strike. Or the GM might allow a Sense Motive roll (opposed by the would-be attacker's Bluff) to recognize his hostile intent. Or the GM just might say "You're all surprised by the sudden outburst of violence, nobody gets a surprise round, roll initiative".
Although I would be a bit irritated with a GM who took that last approach. I'd like to think that my characters at least have a chance, however small, to see trouble before it happens - I put all those ranks into those skills for a reason.
I usually group 4 with 2. They're both aware of each other (plainly visible, etc).
But when that tough guy suddenly draws his weapon, usually that will draw attention.
If your party is talking with a group of peaceful villagers, then one person in the conversation (either villager or PC) just up and socks another in the face, is that the surprise round? Can the PC's even "perceive" it in time (20th level rogue and similar superhuman abilities notwithstanding)?Some class abilities allow you to always attack in the surprise round, so someone with these abilities should be able to use them, even if he doesn't start the fight - the attacker and anyone with these abilities get to act in the surprise round.
As for the rest, this is open to GM interpretation. He might allow a perception check. Maybe it represents noticing that the guy is shifting his balance as he prepares to strike. Or the GM might allow a Sense Motive roll (opposed by the would-be attacker's Bluff) to recognize his hostile intent. Or the GM just might say "You're all surprised by the sudden outburst of violence, nobody gets a surprise round, roll initiative".
Although I would be a bit irritated with a GM who took that last approach. I'd like to think that my characters at least have a chance, however small, to see trouble before it happens - I put all those ranks into those skills for a reason.
For me, this has come up more in the context of a particularly stabbity PC doing something murderous. They get miffed when an NPC somehow interrupts their stab. But it makes sense mechanically, and we can make it make sense thematically--that's what roleplaying is all about, right?
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Note: Initiative is rolled before surprise rounds happen. Many, many players and GM's forget this:
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check...The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.
I usually group 4 with 2. They're both aware of each other (plainly visible, etc).
But when that tough guy suddenly draws his weapon, usually that will draw attention.
Just like people notice the guy pulling a 44 and starting to shoot in a bank... oh wait... no, people usually don't notice this. Mainly because people who are doing this are either doing it spur of the moment (IE: They just snap), or they planned on sneak attacking, and they're being stealthy (slight of hand or stealth check appropriate).
Besides which, it's not always a guy drawing a sword. It could be a guy hitting you in the face with his mug in the inn, or a monk kicking you in the nads without warning, or a wizard casting a silent, stilled spell.
Note: Initiative is rolled before surprise rounds happen. Many, many players and GM's forget this:
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check...The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.
Yes, but it isn't really relevant unless more than one character can act during the surprise round.
As for the rest, this is open to GM interpretation. He might allow a perception check. Maybe it represents noticing that the guy is shifting his balance as he prepares to strike. Or the GM might allow a Sense Motive roll (opposed by the would-be attacker's Bluff) to recognize his hostile intent. Or the GM just might say "You're all surprised by the sudden outburst of violence, nobody gets a surprise round, roll initiative".Although I would be a bit irritated with a GM who took that last approach. I'd like to think that my characters at least have a chance, however small, to see trouble before it happens - I put all those ranks into those skills for a reason.
Yep, I usually allow perception checks myself, especially if the guy 'just snaps' since he wasn't planning on attacking, he just did. For premeditated stuff, it's usually sense motive/bluff contests.
Note: Initiative is rolled before surprise rounds happen. Many, many players and GM's forget this:
I don't know how many people forget it. Me, I just find it makes more sense to reverse it.
The following is counter-intuitive:
GM: Everyone roll initiative.
Seoni: 13
Kyra: 8
Valleros: 14
Merisiel: 22
GM: OK, got it. The orcs go on a 4. They're first
Merisiel: I have a 22, way better than a 4.
GM: Yeah, but you're surprised and the orcs are not. They're first.
Merisiel: If I'm surprised, why did I roll for initiative?
GM: I dunno. You just did. The orc hits you for 11 damage.
Merisiel: Crud. I'm unconscious and dying. Good thing I rolled for initiative...
Much more intuitive is:
GM: The orcs surprise you. One of them hits Merisiel for 11 damage!
Merisiel: Crud. I'm unconscious and dying. I wish I had seen those orcs before they attacked...
GM: Everyone else roll initiative.
Seoni: 13
Kyra: 8
Valleros: 14
GM: OK, got it. The orcs go on a 4. Valleros is first.
Yep, the first version is RAW, and DesolateHarmony is correct for pointing it out, but the second version makes more intuitive sense.
I don't think that's what it's intended to do.
This is how I do it...
GM : Ok, the orc's sneak attack, they're monks, so no warning of pulling weapons. Make Sense Motive rolls...
Seoni : 15
Kyra : 19
Valleros : I rolled a 1... $*#&$
GM: OK, Kyra and Seoni got a high enough sense motive, so they get to act in the surprise round. Roll initiatives...
Kyra : 18
Seoni : 5
Valleros : Square root of Infinity cubed
GM : Ok, the Orcs go first, they initiated combat on 8. So they get to go first, then everyone else goes in descending initiative order. Kyra, you were basically 'holding' your action from 18, so you get to go immediately after they do, but you're not flat footed since you're holding. Seoni, you're flat footed. The orc's hit Seoni and all 3 hit, total damage is 11 hp.
Seoni : Gac, I fall down and gurgle blood at them in defiance as I pass out.
Kyra : Ok, I attack the nearest Orc with my fist, since my weapon isn't out and I don't want to lose a round to pull it.