Medium Lance on a small Creature


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

I've tried searching for this, and have found a few lance threads, but nothing tackling this exactly, so here I am.

I'm making a halfling barbarian (this character), who will be a mounted charger (the thought of that image is enough to make me want to play him). Anyway, so I'm of the opinion that min-maxing chars is ok, as long as you start from a inherently inferior position. :D

Anyway, this is my question - can I use a medium 2-h lance as a one handed weapon on my mount, and thus able to use it as a 2-h weapon on my halfling? In everything I've seen, people point to it not being thematically right, but that doesn't make sense to me, as lances were originally used two handed from horse back. It is kind of stretching the intent of the rules though.

I think it would work, but I just don't know.

Grand Lodge

I think this works by RAW. My interpretation of the RAW is if a halfling uses a medium lance whilst mounted, it would take two hands to wield, take a -2 penalty to hit and the halfling would be unable to use it when not mounted. Not sure if it is RAI though.


I understand what you are trying to do here, and it might well be rules legal, but is it really worth the hassle for a minor increase in damage?
remember the even a small lance wielded one handed still counts as a two handed weapon for power attack and furious focus. Between that and the x3 for mounted charge with spirited charge rolling d6s or d8s will not make that much of a diiference as most opponents will be dead when hit them.

to give you an example, I'm playing a lvl 9 halfling cavalier right now. When he goes full monty (power attack, challenge, charge) he does 1d6+28 (+1 magic weapon, +2 str, +7 mount's str, +9 PA, +9 challenge) times 3

And this is not even fully optimised. So why bother with trying to make it d8s. those 3 points of damage (on average) will not make any difference


Take the to hit over a small damage boost. The dice gods HATE when you tempt them with penalties.

Liberty's Edge

It's really not about the damage, its about the hilarity of the character concept. Though I guess really the implication would be pretty nuts for the damage for medium size lancers. Going from 2d8 to 4d6 is significant.


The legality of it is questionable.

The lance is normally a two-handed weapon. As a GM, I would ignore the caveat of "it can be wielded one handed while mounted" and just look at the base type of the weapon. Ergo, I would not allow you to wield a medium lance, mounted or unmounted.

But, you could wield your small lance have enlarge person as a possibility (when size wasn't restricted) and use the impact enchant.


A Lance a a two handed weapon, but can be used one handed if one is mounted. I am not aware that lances on horseback were ever used two-handed, and armor suggest that they did not do so. There was a cradle on the saddle or armor that prevented the lance from dipping. You'd hold the lance in your right arm and let the tip drop until the back of the lance came upwards and landed in the cradle preventing it from going to the ground. A knight could balance the lance up and down between the cradle and his own arm and shift his body to aim the lance left and right.
Right before intended impact of the lance the warrior would lean in the blow in order to bleed of impact by hitting a target and their was a serious chance of falling of if you missed the target and overextended yourself too much.
As it is impossible to trust with a lance when you use it one handed the horse's speed would make sure some impact would be delivered through the weapon. The added advantage was that you could use a shield as well because you would have a hand available and some minor horseriding issue like the reins need the availability of a hand as well. Off course war-horses could be ridden using knees and spurs only, but generally speaking you'd need a hand for the reins, a buckler or light shield allows this.
You might discuss using a heavy shield on horseback with your GM if you get one made specifically for being mounted and using reins. You could argue it's basically a light shield with an extension making it unusable while walking but effectively give it heavy shield protection on horseback. You might even argue that you would have to specify the shield to a specific mount type (like a horse) and not being able to use that while riding a griphon unless you'd make a shield speciffically for that mount. But I digress from the discussion.
As a GM I would rule that using a lance two handed from horseback is possible but would deny the double damage while charging. You'd get 1.5 the stength bonus and the charge bonus as if you were on foot and a bonus from being on high ground, but not the double damage as you are not using the weapon as it was intended on horseback. And remember that character's using a bracable weapon against you while you charge would get double damage.


The way I see it (for a halfling):

1) A small lance is a 2-handed weapon.
2) When your mounted the small lance can be used one handed.

3) A medium lance is a <undefined>-handed weapon, thus not a legal weapon.
4) Nothing suggest that the medium lance changes from something illegal into a two-handed weapon.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

a lance is a two handed weapon that can be wielded one handed when mounted.
because its still a two handed weapon, you can't wield a medium version as a small character.
thats the way i read lances / handed rules working.

it never says you have to wield it one handed mounted, but its still a two handed weapon.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Snowleopard wrote:
I am not aware that lances on horseback were ever used two-handed, and armor suggest that they did not do so.

I quote from the Wikipedia article on the Kontos

"The kontos was the Greek name for a type of long wooden cavalry lance used by..."

"... it had to be wielded with two hands while directing the horse using the knees; this made it a specialist weapon that required a lot of training and good horsemanship to use."

"The Romans adopted a variation of the kontos transliterated as contus. The Roman contus was also wielded two-handed."

In the later period, you are correct.

"The later Byzantine kontarion was used by Byzantine cataphracts, from c. 1100 it was used single-handed couched under the armpit, as was the contemporary knightly lance."

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