How to defend vs. demoralize? (Intimidate Skill)

[Nazrelle]

Hey guys!
At our last session, I noticed Intimidate doesn't only work vs. my ingame opponents, it also affected my GM as well...
He gave me the task to do some research with him, how to defend vs. demoralize. What he means is an active defense from the enemies, that are not immune to that.

My character is level 4 at the moment. He's Cavalier (Gendarme) 2 and Rogue (Thug, Scout) 2. Order of the Cockatrice gave him Dazzling Display and Thug Archetype does it's job anyhow.
The problem the GM has is the DC vs. the intimidate check. With a skill value of 22, I autowin this. Sometimes, if I role high, people just run.

Is there anything to raise the DC? (except the Order of the Cockatrice)
Many Auras, Performances and stuff seem to just buff the saving throw vs. fear effects, which isn't quite the same.

Any hints for my GM and me?
Greetings!

[SiuoL]

You need high wisdom to rise up the DC for intimidate. It's 10 + your level + your wisdom modifier! Also fighter has saving throw bonus against fear, I don't think it would help as this is only apply for will saving throw. However, personally I would allow my player to have a will save against the intimidate and count such throw as against fear. To be honest, fighter's bravery is pretty useless, it's the least I could do for those who train so hard in melee combat as a GM.

[Gauss]

My defense? Tell the player to make a different build (kidding).

There is really only one defense besides fear immunity: Remove Fear

There is one spell that buffs you if you are scared (Swallow your Fear).

Other than that, nada.

Personally, I think the Demoralize builds have shown a critical weakness in Demoralize. It is just too easy to cripple an entire group of enemies. I think I may have to discuss houserules with my groups.

- Gauss

[KutuluKultist]

I would advice against nerfing intimidate. It's costly to make it effective and in most cases, it will only cause shaken for a short time, against which most things are immune.

[claymade]

Gauss wrote:

Personally, I think the Demoralize builds have shown a critical weakness in Demoralize. It is just too easy to cripple an entire group of enemies. I think I may have to discuss houserules with my groups.

I don't think the issue is so much in the Demoralize skill itself, as much as an issue with things like the Thug archetype, which provide a way to get around the usual "no possible way to use Demoralize's shaken to get Frightened" restriction. The core of Demoralize is just a rather pedestrian debuff that is of questionable action-economy worth on its own; it's only when you gain a way to possibly upgrade the condition that it becomes really amazing.

And even that I don't actually think counts as "broken". Is it very, very good? Heck yes! And I'm glad that martials can actually get something like that, another flavorful option that doesn't fall by the wayside at mid-to-high levels, fits with their theme, and isn't just "hit it with a stick".

I think it pays for being much easier to land by also being less effective; its harder to resist than say, a wizard spell, but it isn't the sort of complete encounter-ender that a lot of wizard spells can be either. If it allowed a comparable save for a significantly lesser effect, it'd be just another lackluster option that you should eschew in favor of being a beatstick.

As it stands, you can definitely disrupt the opponents action economy and positioning, but it won't end the fight like a wizard can. Sure, they might end up fleeing for a round, but they don't need to be stupid about it; the frightened description says it flees "as best it can". I'd assume that includes Withdraw actions (so as not to provoke if you're in AoO range) or Run actions (to get out of PC charge range if you're not).

And since Thug's version of frightened only lasts a single round they'll be coming back again next turn, with a +5 DC on the Intimidate check each time you use it. It's not something you can use to keep them Fright-locked permanently; that +5 for subsequent attempts within an hour will add up pretty fast.

I actually love the build, to be honest. It's an admittedly powerful option for martial classes that synergizes with giving them social options as well, an option that has to be used fairly tactically, measuring when the optimal time to make use of it is to mess with the enemy positioning.

To the OP, for GM strategies to counter, I'd suggest that the key won't be so much "stating the enemies so that they can usually just tank the intimidate effect and make it just a no-sell" but rather "making enemies respond to being demoralized in the best way."

1) Definitely make sure to track all the +5 DC increases. This will make it less attractive to just use willy-nilly.

2) Even Frightened creatures will fight if cornered, and they literally can't run. Fights in tight quarters might not see all THAT much difference between Frightened and Shaken, and Shaken just isn't all that much in the broad scheme of things.

3) Have the NPCs use all their options, even when frightened, to flee effectively, so as not to expose themselves to AoOs or set themselves up for PC counterattack. This may include even foes that you didn't frighten falling back temporarily as well. Yeah, you've bought yourself a turn, but if the keep their formation regardless the unfrightened NPCs can set themselves up to try and make you pay for attempting to exploit the frightened ones.

In the end, I think it comes down to tactics more than stats.

[Alexander Augunas]

Be a paladin. Anything immune to fear, emotion effects, or mind-affecting abilities is immune to demoralize attempts.

[claymade]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Be a paladin. Anything immune to fear, emotion effects, or mind-affecting abilities is immune to demoralize attempts.

Actually, Intimidate is not described as a mind-affecting ability anywhere that I'm aware of, unless there's something I'm missing.

http://paizo.com/prd/skills/intimidate.html

Which makes sense. After all, when you demoralize, you're not trying to muck around with the target's brain-meats to directly, artificially create the emotion. What you're doing is simply creating an actual situation in the outside world, a situation where that fear would come to the target naturally.

The only way to be flat-out immune to Demoralize is to be simply immune to feeling fear in any kind of scary situation, fundamentally speaking.

[RedDogMT]

Isn't the problem really the Thug's Frightening ability? If I recall correctly, the Thug is the only class that uses Intimidate to a greater ability.

Frightening:

Frightening (Ex): Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.

I agree that it is a bit overpowered when combined with Dazzling Display. The idea that a low level character that goes heavy on the intimidate can scare off a whole group of bad guys is a bit ridiculous. As a GM, I would nerf Frighting or Dazzling Display in some way.
...Frightening only works on one opponent per round, or
...Frightening does not work with Dazzling Display, or
...+1 or +2 bonus on Sense Motive for the opponent for each additional ally in sight.
I like the last one best.

[Nazrelle]

Thanks for the answers so far!

RedDogMT wrote:

Isn't the problem really the Thug's Frightening ability? If I recall correctly, the Thug is the only class that uses Intimidate to a greater ability.

** spoiler omitted **

I agree that it is a bit overpowered when combined with Dazzling Display. The idea that a low level character that goes heavy on the intimidate can scare off a whole group of bad guys is a bit ridiculous. As a GM, I would nerf Frighting or Dazzling Display in some way.
...Frightening only works on one opponent per round, or
...Frightening does not work with Dazzling Display, or
...+1 or +2 bonus on Sense Motive for the opponent for each additional ally in sight.
I like the last one best.

Why exactly buff their Sense Motive? I think it doesnt really benefit them with resisting the demoralize - or am I missing something?

[MrSin]

claymade wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Be a paladin. Anything immune to fear, emotion effects, or mind-affecting abilities is immune to demoralize attempts.

Actually, Intimidate is not described as a mind-affecting ability anywhere that I'm aware of, unless there's something I'm missing.

However creatures that are mindless specially call out compulsion and morale effects as something they are immune to. Is demoralizing a moral affect? I would think... but this game can be weird sometimes. Constructs or skeletons fearing you for being scary sounds weird to me, but a rat or spider being afraid makes a lot of sense.

D20SRD wrote:

•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).

Anyways, the problem is definitely with frightened more than shaken I would think isn't it? Shaken isn't too bad imo, but foes that are frightened tend to get out(though cornered ones still fight). You shouldn't frighten them too often with dazzling display I wouldn't think, you have to get 15 over 10+HD+Wis, and ideally a player only has HD+3+Cha+Misc(though misc could be a lot of things, are you really hitting 25 over their HD+Wis consistently?)

I guess you could stop pumping intimidate to raise what you effectively have to roll? That'd be sort of weird though...

[RedDogMT]

Nazrelle wrote:

Thanks for the answers so far!

RedDogMT wrote:

Isn't the problem really the Thug's Frightening ability? If I recall correctly, the Thug is the only class that uses Intimidate to a greater ability.

** spoiler omitted **

I agree that it is a bit overpowered when combined with Dazzling Display. The idea that a low level character that goes heavy on the intimidate can scare off a whole group of bad guys is a bit ridiculous. As a GM, I would nerf Frighting or Dazzling Display in some way.
...Frightening only works on one opponent per round, or
...Frightening does not work with Dazzling Display, or
...+1 or +2 bonus on Sense Motive for the opponent for each additional ally in sight.
I like the last one best.

Why exactly buff their Sense Motive? I think it doesnt really benefit them with resisting the demoralize - or am I missing something?

Oh sorry, I was thinking Bluff vs Sense Motive. What I actually meant is that the target of the Intimidate would be more difficult to intimidate because he had buddies around.

[Sergoth]

Personally, I use "Situational" modifiers when it comes to GMing checks like Diplomacy and Intimidate. For a horde of mooks, let the one with the best will save, or the non mook "leader" of the NPC's make the save for the group, with each mook adding +1 to the leaders save. If it's something more akin to a band of enemy adventurers, start with the one with the highest save. If he succeeds, add +1 to the next one's check. If he routs, subtract one. This leads to domino style rallies and routs. Will there be severe punishment for running away? +2 morale bonus. Your reputation for bloodshed proceeded you and they know EXACTLY what you did to the last group you fought? -4 Morale bonus. Circumstances can make even a normally cowardly bunch brave.