| Mathius |
I am posting this in advice because I am more interested in how to run mounted combat then in what the rules say. I also want to know what RAW says as baseline so I know just how far from the rules I am straying.
Anything that refers to a mount but has language that say whey you charge works when the mount charges and you do not works and is not just a bunch of useless text. Wheeling charge and mounted blade work. Pretty sure that Ride by attack means when your mount charges.
I am not sure about thing mention when you charge but make not mention of a mount. Examples would be charge through, rhino charge, and rhino hide armor. For some reason I am tempted to say that magic items work on mounted charges but feats do not. I would say that the mount has to have the feat but the PC does not.
I am also not sure how mounted skirmisher would interact with a charge. I can see not allowing with a charge or making only the first attack get bonuses from a charge. I have hard time justifying all attacks benefiting from a charge. Whirlwind attack with a charge is kinda insane but none of this is doable until high level so maybe it is balanced when compared to spell casters.
I get that if a mount move more then 1 square you can not make a full attack unless you have the above mentioned feat. I do not understand why one should not allow more then one attack if you can make one as a standard action. This would allow cleave and some two weapon fighting stuff. I can even see allowing charge bonuses to these attacks.
I have heard somewhere that a mount can not attack if you use ride by attack, why would that be?
On trample and mounted onslaught why is the PC who gives up his attack to do and overrun and not the mount? What about allowing one attack from a natural weapon instead of a hoof. I can see restricting it to an attack made with a foot.
Is there a reason that a rider can not also take a charge action? If yes then there is no difficulty in benefiting from charge based feats. If you can not is there a way that a rider can benefit from something like minotaurs charge with resorting to house rules?
| Claxon |
If you run the way you think it supposed to be intuitively, you're probably right.
But, that said I'll address some of the specifics things you've said to make some points clarified. Ride By Attack applies to the rider of the mount and allows the rider to get the mount to charge, allow him to make an attack, and keep moving. Without the mount having Spring Attack, the mount (I don't believe) can attack (because it would otherwise stop moving).
Charge Through is something you would want your mount to have, not you. I can't find Rhino Charge. Rhino hide armor could be applied to both mount and rider, though not for PFS as you can't make specific armor into barding for PFS. Also in PFS you would be hampered by the limited enhancement bonus on the armor. You can discuss with you GM about modyfing the armor to be something other than exactly as presented in the source book.
I think the most important thing for you to grasp is probably that the rider is not making an actual charge, the mount is. But the rider gets all the bonuses as if he were charging. So a greater beast totem lance wielding barbarian can ride his mount, charge in on beastback, and get a full attack, but only gets the extra damage for spirited charge and attacking with a lance from horseback on the first attack.
For someone with mounted skirmisher charge is a bad idea. It would limit you to one attack, unless you have some sort of pounce.
Whirlwind Attack is a special full found action, it could not be done on a charge. It could be done with mounted skirmisher, you mount could move you into position and then you could whirlwind.
This is my best understanding of how the rules function, though I could be in error.
| Mathius |
I do not see why you would need a pounce ability to make a FA if you mount charges and you have mounted skirmisher. I think it would be just like the barbarian. Though I am not sure.
How could spring attack allow a mount to attack when you use ride by attack? It is its own full round action and is definitely not a charge.
| Claxon |
Because charge is specifically:
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Now, I think it would be a reasonable houserule to say that a mount could charge in, and the rider could get a full attack if the have Mounted Skirmisher, but RAW I don't believe it works. And, even if you allowed a full attack you shouldn't allow the benefits of multiplied damage from Spirited Charge and using a lance. There was specifically developer intervention on this issues because AM BARBARIAN built a beast totem barbarian with a flying mount and spirited charge that we now call RAGELANCEPOUNCE. It's damage was insane because at that time there was no ruling that you couldn't pounce on a mounted charge and wouldn't get all the bonuses. Ultimately it resulted in them saying that you could pounce, but you didn't get the extra bonuses on the itterative attacks, just the first.
You're right about Spring Attack and Ride By Attack, they can't be combined because you can't Spring Attack on a charge, which leads me to believe you mount simply can't attack on a ride by attack.
For Rhino Charge to work you have to have you mount learn the feat. Then it could technically ready an action to charge (by you instructing it do so) at which point in could chrge up to it's desired distance. You would also need to ready an action to attack when after you mount charge to be able to attack on the charge as well, I believe. Rhino Charge is not originally intended to be done while mounted based on the text and description of the feat on D20pfsrd.
| Mathius |
I would think that mounted skirmisher is like pounce from the back of a mount. The reason being that you do not charge when you mount charges. The barbarian ruling is similar enough to this that applying charge benefits to the interatives. I assume that applies to the to hit benefit of a charge as well as lance damage and spirited charge. The second attack could be 19 points lower for a 20th level cavalier when you factor in power attack and not more charge bonus to hit along with iterative penalties.
Still not sure on the ride by attack thing. I always thought that when something say when you charge and are mounted it could be read when your mount charges. That would mean that it can attack as well. Not sure if that is overpowered.
Anyone got any thoughts about moving the overrun on trample to the mount or allowing more the one attack from the back of mount if you can do it as a standard?
| Claxon |
Mounted Skirmisher isn't pounce. It mentions nothing about a charge attack at all. Not all mounted movements must be charges. This allows your mount to move up to its full speed and you to get a full attack. It's honestly better than a charge in most cases because you don't aren't limited to moving directly towards the enemy and it isn't interupted by difficult terrain or the other myriad of things that can prevent charging. The only drawback is you can't get Spirited Charge/Lance multiplied damage.
Charge is unfortunately a full-round action, and outside of pounce there is no way to get a full-atatck on charge that I know of.
The only reason the barbarian gets to full attack on the mounted charge is because he gets the benefits of charging despite not being the one to actually charge.
Mounted Combat rules are wonky, and these types of question come up often. I recall a thread a while back that was supposed to be a good coverage of everything the rules entailed, but I can't find it now.
Edit: In further reading I have found very dissenting opinion ons Mounted Skirmisher and Charge. It seems based on the very things we have both mentioned.
That since charge is normally a full-round action that specifically only allows one attack that is what you're limited to (unless you have pounce), and the other interpretation being that Mounted Skirmisher overcomes the limitation from the charge's full-round action status.
I don't think there has been an official resolution. Consult your GM.
Michael Sayre
|
The following is a post from another thread but has some bearing-
In this FAQ SKR makes it clear that a lance only does double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
We also know from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that normal is "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action".
the Vital Strike FAQ says " Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."
What does that mean? It means you still have your full complement of actions, you can Vital Strike with a lance from the back of a charging mount, and you can do:
Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited charge + 1x weapon Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancements + precision and weapon properties
or
Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties.
Further, there are only three places where people seem to have trouble with the mounted combat rules:
Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge which both say "When you are mounted and use the charge action"
and the section in Mounted combat that says "When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."
The lance is clarified in it's own equipment entry where it says "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount" and since SKR has already clarified that when your mount is charging, you are not the one taking the charge action, we know that these feats are triggered by being on the back of a charging mount. Problem solved, everything works, no other contradictions or issues.
Michael Sayre
|
Mounted Skirmisher isn't pounce. It mentions nothing about a charge attack at all. Not all mounted movements must be charges. This allows your mount to move up to its full speed and you to get a full attack. It's honestly better than a charge in most cases because you don't aren't limited to moving directly towards the enemy and it isn't interupted by difficult terrain or the other myriad of things that can prevent charging. The only drawback is you can't get Spirited Charge/Lance multiplied damage.
Charge is unfortunately a full-round action, and outside of pounce there is no way to get a full-atatck on charge that I know of.
Good thing that your mount is the one taking the special full round action. You can absolutely reap the benefits of Spirited charge on your first attack with a lance and then complete a the rest of your attacks with normal damage if you have Mounted Skirmisher. It's one of the perks of having such a situational combat style.
| Mathius |
Ok, one stupidly powerful attack and several attacks that are simply nice but no where near the charge attack in power. As a GM I can live with that.
Any thoughts on what it would mean to allow multiple attacks on charge or move if you can make them as standard action? They might even be legal based on specific overriding general but not sure.
What about having the mount use overrun for trample or mounted onslaught?
Edit: Thank you both for helping out with this.