Harrow Deck of Many Things inquiry

[TheCedict]

Our party recently got mixed up with this and i drew "The Trumpet" the wording of the card is a little vague.

"
This card grants the character the ability to summon an outsider of his alignment once per day. This outsider must be of a CR equal to or less than the character's level and serves for a number of rounds equal to the character's level.
"

Source: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/deck-of-many- things-harrow

As a player this sounds like it should scale with my level as it seems to determine the CR that can be summoned when the ability is used. but the DM interpreted it as being determined by the level at which the card is drawn. I was curious who was right, or it was worded like that to give the DM some leeway with the deck. I tend to think it's not to give leeway as the deck gives very little leeway to anyone.

~Kinamae

[MurphysParadox]

I wouldn't phrase it as "who is right? The GM or me?" because the answer is always the GM in any specific situation.

Now, how would we GMs have ruled things in a hypothetical yet identical situation? It would be determined at the point of summoning and thus grow with you. If they wanted it to be determined at the time of drawing, it would have been clear about that in order to prevent misunderstanding.

It is actually quite awkward to word the card in a way to explain that it is based on the time of drawing. You'd have to modify "character's level" with "character's level at the time of drawing this card" or similar wording. Or at the start, specify that the player picks a specific type of outsider of his alignment and with a CR <= level when this card is drawn; then go on to say he or she can summon it once a day for rounds = level at the time of drawing. See? Awkward.

But your GM is always right.

[Bizbag]

Artifacts use the game rules, but are not bound by them. They wouldn't be artifacts otherwise.

Given that the text of the Trumpet card says "grants the character the ability to summon..." (emphasis mine), I'd argue that it is granting the equivalent of a class ability. In almost all cases, feats and magic items that grant the equivalent of class abilities, and do not specifically call out "...as an [X] of level 5" usually level up with the character. Thus, it'd make sense that the Deck would too.

On the other hand, it's an artifact. It's only there because the GM specifically wanted to screw with you. The Deck is Temptation incarnate for players. I wouldn't put it past the Deck to be spiteful and not have the power level up.

[TheCedict]

MurphysParadox wrote:

I wouldn't phrase it as "who is right? The GM or me?" because the answer is always the GM in any specific situation.

Now, how would we GMs have ruled things in a hypothetical yet identical situation? It would be determined at the point of summoning and thus grow with you. If they wanted it to be determined at the time of drawing, it would have been clear about that in order to prevent misunderstanding.

It is actually quite awkward to word the card in a way to explain that it is based on the time of drawing. You'd have to modify "character's level" with "character's level at the time of drawing this card" or similar wording. Or at the start, specify that the player picks a specific type of outsider of his alignment and with a CR <= level when this card is drawn; then go on to say he or she can summon it once a day for rounds = level at the time of drawing. See? Awkward.

But your GM is always right.

Bizbag wrote:

Artifacts use the game rules, but are not bound by them. They wouldn't be artifacts otherwise.

Given that the text of the Trumpet card says "grants the character the ability to summon..." (emphasis mine), I'd argue that it is granting the equivalent of a class ability. In almost all cases, feats and magic items that grant the equivalent of class abilities, and do not specifically call out "...as an [X] of level 5" usually level up with the character. Thus, it'd make sense that the Deck would too.

On the other hand, it's an artifact. It's only there because the GM specifically wanted to screw with you. The Deck is Temptation incarnate for players. I wouldn't put it past the Deck to be spiteful and not have the power level up.

I can see what you mean about who being right because DM trumps all in all cases. But it seemed like a weird interpretation. I was more looking to see if i was the only one to think that way. In the end the ability as read would level up with me. But if the dm says it doesn't, then it doesn't.

At the same time, these cards have the ability to grant wishes, give players Holy Avengers and snuff out PCs forever. It seems weird that it would be so static.

It might be there only for the DM to screw with us, but that also means the DM has to be ready for the results good or bad. It is also strange that a lawful good aligned card would be that underhanded.

I think i will discuss this with my DM. As much as i realize that he might be trying to screw with me or maybe trying to downplay the card, at the end of the day he also gambled by giving us access to the deck in the first place.

[Bizbag]

The card is Lawful Good, but the Deck as a whole certainly isn't. Given that it's an artifact, the question of whether the Deck as a whole is one item, or the composite of 54 separate items, all their own motives, or if the Deck is a master identity with 54 subservient identities... it's all very juicy stuff for a GM to create an interesting story. It's quite possible that the Trumpet wants to give you the better version, but is limited the power balance against the other cards...

And yes, he did make that gamble giving you access to the deck. I think it's fair that you get full use of the ability, as long as you make an agreement not to use it for ridiculous cheese. For example, if I were your GM, I'd probably suggest that any summoned creatures have their own summoning capabilities suppressed for the duration of the summons (though I think that's standard for the Summon SLA anyway).

[Alleran]

I asked about the Trumpet card for a Harrow Deck a while ago:

James Jacobs wrote:

Alleran wrote:

1) Is the ability to summon a spell-like ability (like most demon/devil summon options) or supernatural? And what spell level is it equivalent to for concentration checks and the like?

2) If the character's alignment changes, does the outsider he summons also change?

3) If the character levels up, do the number of rounds it stays for increase, and does the CR of the outsider summoned also increase?

4) If a second Harrow Deck of Many Things was found and used, and the Trumpet card was drawn a second time, would it be a completely separate summon ability or would it lengthen the summon ability already possessed by the character?

1) It's a supernatural ability, therefore no need for things like concentration checks.

2) Yes.

3) Yup; the rounds and CR increase to match the character's level.

4) If the Trumpet is drawn again by someone who already has that power, nothing happens. The draw has no effect, which is as much good news as it is bad news.

[Bizbag]

Alleran wrote:

3) Yup; the rounds and CR increase to match the character's level.

Hey, there you go.

Alleran wrote:

4) If the Trumpet is drawn again by someone who already has that power, nothing happens. The draw has no effect, which is as much good news as it is bad news.

Heh. This is why I love the Deck of Many Things. You can't help but draw from it, but your first emotion is relief if the card does nothing.