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I have no idea why anyone would dislike wendo or the mystery. Any negative views is likely from an obsession for good undead.
That said wendo is basically a form of animism. Its a more advances form but still basically animism. As a result its the sort of thing that can probably pop up anywhere.
I dont think there is anything wrong with that idea. But i think they would be judged by pharasma regardless of their belief in wendo. I have only read faiths and philosophies though. I am sure the ss ap that gave the origonal oracle mystery probably has more info.
I'm the GM in question. Without giving spoilers to my player, I will suffice it to say that he plans to play this character in the Reign of Winter AP, which involves travel to a number of locations where the presence of Wendo spirits may be in question.
Traditional necromancy just requires magical energy to be present. Wendo, IIRC, requires that there be Wendo spirits available.
A few things, first you may want to try divorsing the mwangi centric religon from the oracle mystery. Ultimately where the oracle thinks he's getting his power isn't necessarily the truth. Oracles following this mystery are as effective anywhere as any other oracle. Barring obvious stuff like a fire oracle next to an active volcano.
The oracle following this mystery thinks the spirits are there. They don't have to be. From there he can work any variation of the wendo concept into any primitive religon fairly easily.
I'm not particularly committed to cramming Wendo into parts of the setting where it doesn't really fit. Also, while Mysteries like "fire" or "battle" are generic enough to be adapted, "wendo" is culturally specific, and is described in both the original AP where it appeared and the more recent revision in Faiths and Philosophies as being specific to a particular form of belief.
I'm running a roleplaying game, not a CRPG. If you want the mechanics, and the mechanics are attached to fluff, then you have to take the fluff as well.
I think you may be unnecessarily restricting the player here.
Where are wendo and where are they not? Well, all this is based off real world voodoo and they don't think those gods/spirits only appear just in certain places. It's just shamanism, and while one specific spirit may be in one place there's spirits everywhere. You could make the same argument about any other deity worshipped in one part of Golarion and not another. Unless all the other god-powers go away when someone goes to another planet or plane or time, there's no reason the wendo would either.
From a metagame point of view, jacking a player for their character choices is poor form.
I think the question here is whether Wendo are tied to Golarion (the planet) or not. If they are, then it's a poor choice for Reign of Winter. If they exist only in places where the spirits of the dead could potentially exist, then it's not quite so bad, but it could still be an issue.
Without giving anything away to the player, those of you who have read through the AP may recall that you go to a place where the only dead spirits would be...rather unpleasant.
Or to put it bluntly, Reign of Winter is specifically an AP with a lot of planar travel. It seems like a bad situation to be a spirit-based shaman in.
I think the question here is whether Wendo are tied to Golarion (the planet) or not. If they are, then it's a poor choice for Reign of Winter. If they exist only in places where the spirits of the dead could potentially exist, then it's not quite so bad, but it could still be an issue.
Without giving anything away to the player, those of you who have read through the AP may recall that you go to a place where the only dead spirits would be...rather unpleasant.
Or to put it bluntly, Reign of Winter is specifically an AP with a lot of planar travel. It seems like a bad situation to be a spirit-based shaman in.
I can see your point. However, if the character can travel, there's nothing saying the spirits can't as well.
The OP's original premise, that Wendo are the spirits of athiests, is flawed, not because it's wrong, but because it lacks evidence. Thus it's up to you, as the GM, to decide.
The Juju Oracle isn't, in the RAW, limited in any way differently than other classes are. If you wonder how the magical effects function, consider it the same way a PC themselves normally travels the planes: magic. In other words the spells or effects that require Wendo to function can be handwaved away as creating a window for the Wendo () to come into whatever realm you are in. Conjuration doesn't work for some reason? Good thing it's not conjuration then!
"But- but- but... "opening a window, is what conjuration does! It's in the name!"
Yes, but blowing stuff up is what evocation does, and conjuration still does that better.
Manipulating light and darkness is what illusion does (it's in the name!) but evocation does it better.
Necromancy is all about power over life and death, but somehow conjuration gets the positive energy stuff.
Conjuration could stand to share some things.
I mean, even though Illusion "conjures" forth bits from the plane of shadow, that's not exactly harming Conjuration the school. Thus the Juju power can afford to "conjure" without being part of "conjuration" and move across planes.
The explanation? "It's magic. It works like that."
Your alternative, if you want to hold a consistent metric, and ban the Juju based on story-fluff is to actively rewrite the preponderance of the spell-system, dividing up conjuration into a ton of other schools, making illusion a subschool of conjuration+enchantment+evocation (or something) and making necromancy a subschool of conjuration+transmutation (or something). That's about the only way you'll start making sense of the magic-system (at least regarding spells) as it currently stands.
If you don't want him to use the Juju oracle, though, just tell him outright you don't want him to use the Juju. The idea that it otherwise doesn't work due to fluff, though, pretty much flies in the face of most of the assumptions PF (and 3rd Edition before it) makes about magic and how it works. It's totally okay if you don't want to have to deal with the Juju stuff, but really it's better just to say so, I think.
:)
It's a bit inaccurate to draw comparisons between the Arcane magic schools and Wendo; Oracles are Divine spellcasters. This is more analogous to the issue of whether a Cleric of, say, Sarenrae would still be able to use their powers if they somehow got planeshifted to, say, Faerun. Or worse yet, Athas.
If your magic powers are distinctly tied to the power of Divine entities, there is existing precedent for those powers being mutable once you leave the reach of those entities (see the aforementioned Athas). Pathfinder allows for Atheist divine spellcasters, so presumably Divine spells can work without a patron's influence under some circumstances (remember, however, that Aroden's Clerics lost all of their abilities/spells when he died). We're talking about Mystery-specific abilities though, not simply Divine spells. And if we allow those to work regardless of source/fluff, then it becomes a bit meaningless.
I've told Rayan already that if all he wants is to be a good-aligned Necromancer who can create non-evil Undead, I don't have a problem with that. He could be a Wizard or Cleric and do it if he wants to. My only concern is with the validity of the recently-retconned Juju Mystery, and the extent to which that specific Mystery is story/genre appropriate for the AP.
It's also worth pointing out that I've also told him we won't even be getting around to this AP for half a year, since the group is still only about halfway through Rise of the Runelords (and taking their damn sweet time, to boot).
It's a bit inaccurate to draw comparisons between the Arcane magic schools and Wendo; Oracles are Divine spellcasters. This is more analogous to the issue of whether a Cleric of, say, Sarenrae would still be able to use their powers if they somehow got planeshifted to, say, Faerun. Or worse yet, Athas.
I accept that this is what you feel. However:
1) the schools of magic exist in their entirety within divine spellcasters. I wasn't referencing "just" arcane magic. Each of the spellschools do exist as divine spells, too, with the exception of Universal (example: Miracle is "evocation", which, while I think is goofy design decision, is one of many, and that's okay). That is the source of citing all of those as examples, not using a specific caster or magic source, but talking about the schools in general, regardless of arcane or divine anything.If your magic powers are distinctly tied to the power of Divine entities, there is existing precedent for those powers being mutable once you leave the reach of those entities (see the aforementioned Athas). Pathfinder allows for Atheist divine spellcasters, so presumably Divine spells can work without a patron's influence under some circumstances (remember, however, that Aroden's Clerics lost all of their abilities/spells when he died). We're talking about Mystery-specific abilities though, not simply Divine spells. And if we allow those to work regardless of source/fluff, then it becomes a bit meaningless.
This is a stronger point, however:
2) Pathfinder allows for Athiest (or "concept") clerics, but Golarion does not, and...
3) Druids also require patrons in Faerun, while they do not in Golarion or Pathfinder, and...
3) ... it has been clearly stated that it doesn't matter what your belief system is, you can still be an oracle. That is, oracle powers are thrust upon the oracle rather than being something that's generated by faith.
4) Also, while you can tie Faerun and Athas into the PF campaign setting, there is never a location in the PF cosmology as-printed that interdicts divine magic except direct divine action or general magical malaise (such as in the Mana Wastes), in which case all magic (spells, spell-likes, and supernatural abilities) suffer equally.
5) You may use those as part of your stylistic choice. That's totally fine. But, to me (as in, in my opinion, personally, not "you should feel this way"), if there is a class, and it has flavor, you (I mean this as a very general "you", not, "you, spectrevk") can (in theory) make that work unless you don't want to or you don't see how. Often, even if I don't see a way, personally, someone can come up with a way to explain it that I hadn't seen before. If I disagree with that idea (which happens), that's fine. And that's what I mean about, "not wanting to" (which there's nothing wrong with).
6) All of that to say that my point does not mean I think you're "doing it wrong" - I'm just offering a way or methodology to allow such things to work, if you want it to.
I've told Rayan already that if all he wants is to be a good-aligned Necromancer who can create non-evil Undead, I don't have a problem with that. He could be a Wizard or Cleric and do it if he wants to. My only concern is with the validity of the recently-retconned Juju Mystery, and the extent to which that specific Mystery is story/genre appropriate for the AP.
It's also worth pointing out that I've also told him we won't even be getting around to this AP for half a year, since the group is still only about halfway through Rise of the Runelords (and taking their damn sweet time, to boot).
It sounds like you guys might have worked out a compromise already. That's fine. Mostly I was offering a way that it could work, and giving justification in terms of in-game-reasoning.
Other possibilities:
1) the Wendo actually use the Juju oracle himself as the "window" they use - thus, no matter where he goes, he "has them around".
- 1a) this could be part of a "plan" by (some?) Wendo to "spread themselves" (or their kind, at least) around
- 1b) this could be a side-effect of a minor piece of the oracle's spirit being tied to the land where Wendo dwell, allowing them to always access him, wherever he is
- 1c) this could just be because, "magic", as I noted above
- 1d) there are a ton of other potential reasons, I'm just not thinking of. :)
2) the Wendo, in another region, realm, or area are replaced (incidentally or purposefully) by different "spirits" of some sort or another; the effects still work the same (because the oracle has the power to call upon "spirits" innately), but some other entity is granting the effect (similar to how Paladins from Faerun can still exist in Ravenloft, despite the fact that Faerunian deities - the source of Paladin powers - don't exist and can't enter Ravenloft).
- 2a) this could be a role-playing element, where the oracle needs to contact the local spirit creatures (given the Russian element, you could look to Rashemen for local spirits, or some other host of spirits, dead or otherwise, for inspiration)
- 2b) this might happen seamlessly so that the oracle doesn't realize, and their only hints that something might be "off" are the strange "quirks" ("flavor") of the undead (or powers, or whatever) in this new place
- 2c) it could start off seamless, but if he doesn't change his powers begin to wane until he performs the necessary rites (whatever they may be) for the local effect
-- 2-1) make sure he knows that this might happen first!
3) you could re-flavor the oracle so that instead of being a divine caster, or instead of requiring Wendo, he's an arcane caster of some sort. (Sorcerers and Oracles don't really "feel" the same, mechanically, so I can understand if he'd prefer this option.)
4) If you're okay with clerics being on other planes (which you state you are), perhaps it is actually a god of Golarion that grants the oracular power (the oracles' patron is extremely loosely defined) and they are the one that forged the pact (whatever it was) with the Wendo in the first place. So, while the Wendo respond to the oracle's powers (and can transport, as noted above) the actual "catalyst" of sorts, is divine power, and thus it functions even where the Wendo would not normally be. There are plenty of gods (or other entities) that might be all about this.
My point isn't that you should let him do it. It's that you can let him do it. The above are just a few possible explanations as to why it could work, even that far away.
(To be clear, I, too, am GMing Reign of Winter, and it's something I'd totally allow.)
If it's the "look" or "feel" of Juju itself, that's easily rectified by explaining that "it's Golarion" and "people travel". (Heck, the start of Serpent's Skull has player characters coming from as far away as Varisia as part of their character background.)
If it's just the general idea of "spirit shaman" on "other planes", the Juju Oracle is originally presented in the Serpent's Skull AP, which kind of presumes that (if you play it past the end of the AP) you will "eventually" go "off plane" (either to to stand before Pharasma herself, or to the depths of the Abyss... only to do battle with a <SPOILERED!>*!
While it's not noted at the beginning of the path, it is noted around the time some people would be replacing dead or boring characters in that path. Thus, I think it's safe to assume their power still works, even in those places (though a certain goddess who hates undead, regardless of alignment, might not like you around if you've got undead with you, or you create them).
Regardless, I think it can work. If you don't because you don't like the idea, let me repeat: there's nothing wrong with that. That's totally cool!
I just would also like you to see the alternatives!
:)
You have been Spoiled!
First off, I love this guy. ^^^^^^(making baseless assumptions)
Right back at ya, brother!
Secondly, It's not only for the Undead that I want to be a Juju Oracle, I'd be lying if i said it wasn't a major reason and that I don't love it, but it's not the only reason. I generally like the feel of the Juju Oracle. They have a lot of cool mystery abilities besides the controlling of undead. Their Reminder of Death ability? Beast Tongue? Path of the Snake? Some sweet stuff that is.
Their Final Revelation is pretty much you gain the ability to make Freaky Friday happen. Which sounds hilarious.
Yeah, I love many of their abilities and flavor that comes with it, even if it's a bit freaky. :)
Not to mention that i've already cooped up a whole background for this guy. Just letting that die would peeve me. I would be quite peeved. Peeves would be my nickname for a while so peeved would I be.
I can tell you're attached to it, but as I said to spectrevk, there's nothing wrong with saying "no" to a character concept if she (I'm guessing from the image and lack of profile) just can't fit her mind around it.
I will tell one story that took place fairly recently, though. When running Curse of the Crimson Throne in a single-player campaign, my wife really wanted to recruit a particular NPC. At the time, I was all, "Agh! But... well, okay, I can do that, but it'll wreck everything; do you want me to do that, or do you want to follow the story as written?" and we decided to go with the story as-written. I've regretted that ever since because about one month after I said that, the perfect way to have both what she was asking for and the story as-written slammed me upside the head.
As a fellow GM, I'm generally all about making the player happy, and one example when I didn't because of my own lack of ability to conceptualize it, I've been frustrated ever since.
On the other hand, as a player, I'm all about making things easier and more fun for the GM. Thus, if it doesn't work in their mind, and they can't get it to work in their mind, forcing it on them probably isn't that great an idea. It's their game, too, and how they have fun.
Also, the new Juju Mystery never technically replaced the old one. As I've already mentioned to specktrevk. It was stated in the forum where everyone was unhappy about it by the guy who closed it. I would link it, but I am not a usual forum poster and don't know how. So here's the not blue link.
I love me some Legend of Zelda, too. I'm glad you do to, Rayan! Because clearly, that was entirely in the spirit of your original post there. It's not like I'm a nerd who got caught up in making his own joke or anything.
<.<
>.>
()
Also, sweet! I never saw the end to that thread, so it's good to see now! Thanks! (Though, Sean, really. That was kind of... okay, dropping it.)
Also, also, lesson time!
This:
[ url=writeyouraddresshere.com/whatever ] hey, I'm typing words! [ /url ]
... without the spaces between the brackets becomes this:
hey, I'm typing words!
... which is how you make links here. :)
Also times three, for comparison: Old Juju Mystery, v. the New Juju Mystery. (Yes, I know I just linked those above. I... I forgot. And then I looked the stuff up again, so I'm leaving it! *sniff*!)
It's also worth mentioning that the talk of this character started about 6 months ago, so we're already half way there. I'm willing to wait, because I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaalllly want to play him. Like alot.
Nice! Well, here's hoping the ever-present concept of compromise works out in such a way that both of you are happy and can enjoy.
Peace!
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I have been thinking some on how to add to this discussion. I think part of the problem is that normally the spource of an oracles power is vague. The other thing is that many parts of the mysteries or curses can easily be refluffed for different concepts or theologies.
What this means is that I can make say an oracle of the heavens with the blind curse that instead of being blind in the darkness sense he sees stars everywhere. Perhaps he looks up in the sky and sees twinkling coded messages. I could insert this char just about anywhere. He coukd be a kellid worshiping desna, maybe a remnant of the lirgi (pretty sure that's spelled wrong) looking up in worship at the nights sky through the cracked dome of a telescope broken for a century, or he could worship wendo. The fluff can be rewritten to fit him in anywhere, but no where is the source of his divine power defined. In all cases the only person who knows the source of the divine power is the dm.
Now in faiths and philosophies we have wendo explained and are presented with a little mini pantheon.
First, the whole article is great because it can be used to define any more advanced than base animism religous structure. Basicaly it could be used to model shoanti beliefs, nothing in the concepts expressed here are likely unique to the mwangi and the shackles. It is likely though that variations exist within the kellids mammoth lords and many of the primitive humanoid societies.
Now well go on to the wendo themselves. First, and I think this is most important to the op. No where in the article did it say they actually exist. They could but remember oracles usually have no idea where their power comes from.
So how is this for an idea, the wendo did not define juju mystery, but the mystery defined the wendo.
Using this second model like this means wethee the wendo are real or not does not matter because the mystery like all oracle mysteries no longer has a clear divine source.
So well go back to our blind oracle with the star themw. He's a blind juju oracle who's people descended from the society destroyed when aroden died. Outside his limited field of vision all he can see is stars (if you want to be clever they could be exact star positions from another time or place it doesn't matter, he's still basically blind)
The wendo come to him in the form of dancing star motes or howver you would like and he uses his oracle powers to allow them to temporarily possess people.
Thing is, he could be actually communing wity things in the deepest parts of the dark tapestry. By making the "zombies" he's letting some tentacles horro into the persons mind for the spell durarion.
Anyhow I hope this all helps with the idea that wendo juju or any other oracle mystery can have a lot of mystery to it. It can alp be fit just about anywhere.