| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are numerous spell-like abilities that do not duplicate a spell in way whatsoever. Can these spell-like abilities be quickened? I've searched, and I don't see that it's been answered definitively. For example, can a paladin take Quicken SLA with a divine bond?
If this has been answered explicitly already (not extrapolated), please point me in the right direction, otherwise, please hit the FAQ.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The answer is fairly clearly "no".
Why?
Game balance. Obviously, Quicken Spell is very powerful so it can only be used on spells that are very low-level for the guy who is casting them. Nobody can normally Quicken their top three levels of spells (well, some additional feats can modify this a little) so the feat is already restricted to prevent users from applying it to their most powerful abilities.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability is just as powerful, and has the same limitation. Users cannot apply it to their most powerful SLAs In order to apply this limitation, they made some wonky game construct about caster levels and equivalent spell levels. Because of this wonky construct, it can only be applied to SLAs that have spell levels and caster levels. Anything else is an invalid use of this feat.
They even went out of their way to add wording to make this indisputable:
"Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat."
Per your example, Divine Bond, this is an ability that grows and becomes more powerful as the paladin gains levels. Clearly, at any level of paladin, Divine Bond is NEVER one of his weaker abilities. It would be overpowering to allow a paladin to quicken his best abilities, just like it would be overpowering to allow a wizard to quicken his highest level of spells.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The answer is fairly clearly "no".
Why?
Game balance. Obviously, Quicken Spell is very powerful so it can only be used on spells that are very low-level for the guy who is casting them. Nobody can normally Quicken their top three levels of spells (well, some additional feats can modify this a little) so the feat is already restricted to prevent users from applying it to their most powerful abilities.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability is just as powerful, and has the same limitation. Users cannot apply it to their most powerful SLAs In order to apply this limitation, they made some wonky game construct about caster levels and equivalent spell levels. Because of this wonky construct, it can only be applied to SLAs that have spell levels and caster levels. Anything else is an invalid use of this feat.
They even went out of their way to add wording to make this indisputable:
"Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat."Per your example, Divine Bond, this is an ability that grows and becomes more powerful as the paladin gains levels. Clearly, at any level of paladin, Divine Bond is NEVER one of his weaker abilities. It would be overpowering to allow a paladin to quicken his best abilities, just like it would be overpowering to allow a wizard to quicken his highest level of spells.
I don't really want this to turn into a debate of whether this clearly yes or clearly no. I can site examples where its clearly yes. Would you please hit the FAQ
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ'd, I've examined this myself and came up with a less than certain answer although it does appear to be on the same side as what DM_Blake stated.
As for level 7-9 being quickened, yes you can via a Rod. Letting a paladin quicken his Divine Bond is not necessarily OP imo.
D'arandriel, if this does not turn into a debate then this thread will die quickly and you will get no FAQs. You need multiple people being interested in it and the easiest way to accomplish that is...DEBATE.
- Gauss
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No FAQ required.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Good find.
That means that Quicken Spell-Like Ability could never be used on Divine Bond because that is gained at 5th level and therefore it will permanently have a Caster Level of 5 - the feat requires an ability with Caster Level 10 or higher.
It is also hard to apply that rule to a SLA from a class that never has spell levels, since the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell which would be zero for all classes with no spells.
So I'm not sure that rule really adds enough clarity to eliminate all the confusion on this point.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
And there you go, I forgot that bit that resolved things for me. Thanks Robert. :)
So, Divine Bond would count as a 1st level spell since that is the highest level class spell the character can cast at the time.
DM_Blake, Robert's quote covers Spell Level, not Caster level. The caster level for any SLA is usually your class level (or character level for non-class SLAs).
- Gauss
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The problem still arises when you want the ability to qualify for the feat. First you have to be level 13 because paladin CL is -3. Then your highest level spell is 4 but the highest level SLA you can quicken is 1
10 / 2 - 4 = 1
Doesn't work.
FAQ'd, I've examined this myself and came up with a less than certain answer although it does appear to be on the same side as what DM_Blake stated.
As for level 7-9 being quickened, yes you can via a Rod. Letting a paladin quicken his Divine Bond is not necessarily OP imo.
D'arandriel, if this does not turn into a debate then this thread will die quickly and you will get no FAQs. You need multiple people being interested in it and the easiest way to accomplish that is...DEBATE.
- Gauss
Ok, let's make it a debate then.
Here's the FAQ stating that SLAs are treated as "highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained."
Cleric domains, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, and certain other class features give spell-like abilities that aren't based on spells. What's the effective spell level for these abilities?
The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.
For example, a 1st-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental ray as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 1's highest-level spell available is 1st, that spell-like ability counts as a 1st-level spell. A 9th-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental blast as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 9's highest-level spell available is 4th, that spell-like ability counts as a 4th-level spell.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/07/11
So, in my example, the paladin gets his divine bond at 5th level, and it would be considered a 1st level SLA, and he can pick up Quicken SLA at level 13. Anyway there's many other threads out there that support this interpretation of using Quicken SLA. I don't believe the answer is clear, and i feel it requires a FAQ, so please hit the FAQ.
EDIT: Maybe the paladins' Divine Bond may not be the best example. Let's use Touch of Rage from the Orc Bloodline. The questions still stands, can a SLA that does not duplicate a spell still be quickened? Please hit FAQ.
Divine Bond is equivalent to a 1st level spell, not a 4th level spell because that is set when he gets Divine Bond. It does not change as he progresses (this was covered in the FAQ D'arandriel just posted).
Even if we use the Paladin's caster level for this purpose (rather than class level as with most SLAs) the paladin only needs to be level 13 to quicken a 1st level SLA.
- Gauss
Really, the problem is "What is the spell level of SLAs that do not mimic spells when you do not have a spellcaster class?"
- Gauss
Good question D'arandriel. I have hit the FAQ.
Maybe the prerequisite of the feat itself:
Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at CL 10th or higher.
Since even the FAQ says that Divine Bond is not CL 10 or higher, it would never be eligible.
As for other SLAs, the FAQ references spells the user can cast, but that doesn't help with any non-caster who has an SLA. So if the OP's question is valid, then the FAQ that tells a fighter his SLA (if he finds a way to get one, say, from his race) must have a caster level equal to the highest level fighter spell he can cast - nonsense, at least for a fighter (or any other non-casting class).
I still contend that the Quicken SLA feat says it can only be used on SLAs that duplicate spells, so the original question is moot:
From the feat:
"The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4."
Really, the problem is "What is the spell level of SLAs that do not mimic spells when you do not have a spellcaster class?"
- Gauss
Or, more to the point, no caster level. Can you identify an example of a SLA with no caster level?
Maybe the prerequisite of the feat itself:
Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at CL 10th or higher.
Since even the FAQ says that Divine Bond is not CL 10 or higher, it would never be eligible.
As for other SLAs, the FAQ references spells the user can cast, but that doesn't help with any non-caster who has an SLA. So if the OP's question is valid, then the FAQ that tells a fighter his SLA (if he finds a way to get one, say, from his race) must have a caster level equal to the highest level fighter spell he can cast - nonsense, at least for a fighter (or any other non-casting class).
I still contend that the Quicken SLA feat says it can only be used on SLAs that duplicate spells, so the original question is moot:
From the feat:
"The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4."
Thank you DM Blake. There are clearly two interpretations here, so I think hitting the FAQ could resolve this without endless debate.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that a paladin should be able to quicken SLA with his divine bond or someone with Eldritch Heritage (Orc) should Quicken SLA with Touch of Rage. I just wanted to give some possibly egregious examples.
DM_Blake, do you see something that states that Divine Bond is not CL 10 or higher? A level 13 paladin has a CL of 10. Thus, at level 13 his Divine Bond is a 1st level SLA with a caster level of 10.
David knott 242, most SLAs use the character level or class level as the caster level so that really isn't an issue. Do you have an example of an SLA without a character/class level statement on a class without spells?
- Gauss
DM_Blake, do you see something that states that Divine Bond is not CL 10 or higher? A level 13 paladin has a CL of 10. Thus, at level 13 his Divine Bond is a 1st level SLA with a caster level of 10.
Yes, though it's moot for the other reason I've mentioned (doesn't duplicate a spell).
I'm referring to Robert's quote here, specifically the part I bolded:
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability’s effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
The ability is gained at Paladin level 5 therefore it is cast at level 5, not 10 or 13 or whatever. Essentially the same thing as using a Wand of Divine Bond (not that such a thing exists) with CL 5 - it wouldn't matter what level the user was, the wand would always be CL 5. Likewise, so is the paladin when he uses his Divine Bond.
David knott 242, most SLAs use the character level or class level as the caster level so that really isn't an issue. Do you have an example of an SLA without a character/class level statement on a class without spells?- Gauss
Actually, I was asking for such an example myself, until I realized that that does not answer the question of what spell level to use. So what would be an example of a non-spellcaster having a spell-like ability that does not mimic a known spell?
Really, the problem is "What is the spell level of SLAs that do not mimic spells when you do not have a spellcaster class?"
- Gauss
Or, more to the point, no caster level. Can you identify an example of a SLA with no caster level?
Even if you do find one, a SLA has a caster level equal to your hit dice if you have no spells unless otherwise stated.
DM_Blake, interesting, I must have missed that because it is not calling out Caster Level. It is not entirely clear but, ok.
- Gauss
Is it me or is there a reluctance to hit the FAQ?
For non-spellcasting classes, the only spell-like ability I was able to find for a non-spellcasting class was the Effortless Sneak ability of the Chameleon archetype of the Rogue class in Ultimate Combat (Maybe others exist in non-core sources that are not reproduced in the PRD.). That ability does not look like one that there would be any point in quickening (and whether it should even be a spell-like ability is another question entirely). There are several other spell-like abilities available to rogues that have quite obvious spell levels.
So -- what would be another example of a spell-like ability for a non-spellcasting class with no obvious spell level?
Is it me or is there a reluctance to hit the FAQ?
I don't hit FAQ for corner cases, especially when you can't find a page full of threads on the same subject when searching previous threads. It clogs up the FAQ queue. There is already a FAQ that is similar enough to count this ability. Various quotes have been posted to answer your question without the need of a FAQ.
Is it me or is there a reluctance to hit the FAQ?I don't hit FAQ for corner cases, especially when you can't find a page full of threads on the same subject when searching previous threads. It clogs up the FAQ queue. There is already a FAQ that is similar enough to count this ability. Various quotes have been posted to answer your question without the need of a FAQ.
It's hardly a "corner case". And, as stated, Divine Bond was kust used as an example. There's plenty of SLAs that do not duplicate spells. It's a very simple question, can you use Quicken SLA on SLAs that do not duplicate spells? There's been quite a bit of discussion on previous threads regarding Quickening Touch of Rage. I know there's plenty of builds utilizing Quicken SLA with Touch of Rage. Please hit FAQ.
Bump