Ninja Build

[Toirin]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the message boards. I am working on building a lvl 11 character as a back up. (I play with a DM that doesn't look for, but doesn't pass up opportunities to kill characters)I thoroughly enjoy playing roguelike characters despite the hate they recieve on the boards.

Anyhow, I am building a ninja focused on sneak attacks using invisible blade frequently. I like the idea of going for a two-handed weapon due to the increased likilihood of actually hitting the target rather than the chance to hit 3 times with TWF but higher liklihood to miss with all of them. Also, I am only using CRB, APG, and UC because these are the only books I have so far.

Race: Half-Orc (Mostly for Darkvision)
level: Ninja 11 (contemplating doing Fighter 1/ ninja 10)

Stats (rolled)
Str: 19 (+1 from lvls, +2 from race, starts at 16)
Dex: 14 (+1 from lvl, starts at 13)
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Moonlight Stalker, Moonlight Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Crit (Falcion)
Feats I am considering: Skill Focus (Bluff), Improved/Greater Feint
Tricks: Vanishing Trick, Trap Spotter (I still need to do roguelike things), Black Market Comms, Offensive Defense, Invisible Blade
I want to get Evasion with the next trick at lvl 12.

[Sean O'Brien 794]

Ninjas aren't proficient with falcions. You'll have to take a feat for it if you want to play ninja. As a matter of fact they don't have much in terms of two-handed weapons except simple weapons like the longspear or the ball and sickle. Best you could look for is the katana wielded two handed, which gives you the same crit range as the falcion and leaves a hand free for things like shuriken.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Half-Orcs, however, are proficient with falchions. Instead of Skill Focus (Bluff), why not take extra ki. Also, the Scout archetype works great with 2h weapon build rogues, and ninjas can take it (if the GM allows (which he should since ninjas are basically a rogue archetype)).

[SoulGambit0]

So. Improved Invisibility at level 10 is a lie. Almost everything in existence will have See Invisibility or something similar. Maintaining concealment for Moonlight, etc. at that level can be difficult. You can sit inside darkness / an eversmoking bottle, but then you have to talk with your team-mates about the realities of doing that.

There are two challenges with any Ninja build--the first is gaining Sneak Attack, and the second is adding to your to-hit.

The issue with Feinting is that it only works for one attack. This requires upwards of five feats to properly fix, or two feats if you splash in a level or four of Monk.

[BiosTheo]

Half-Orc mostly for Darkvision? Can I introduce you to my friend the Tiefling which has +2 to DEX and CHA which are your (or in my humble opinion should be) primary stats, and who has darkvision?

I have built quite a few ninjas for quite a wide variety of issues and the only person I had trouble hitting in all instances were the big bads and I always went two-weapon fighting.

Ok, I am going to make several assumptions which may or may not be applicable: 20 Point Buy and by Level Loot.

If you HAVE by level loot, which you should, you should have a +6 Belt of Dexterity. If you switched that 19 to your DEX you would have a +7 to hit from that alone. Don't forget, Two-Weapon Fighting is only a -2 from both weapons. Add that to your BAB (including your one level in fighter) +15 on the initial to hit flat footed (I'll get to that in a minute). And why aren't you using enchanted weapons that add bonuses? Granted you take all that strength and you'll have a higher to hit, by 2 (maybe even by 4), and you deal Strength and a Half (woo?), but all your damage comes from sneak attack die and more attacks=more sneak attack. Also, your AC will be god awful even compared to the sorcerer. And the fact that you HAVE to take negatives to your to hit JUST so you can pump up your AC, vis a vis Combat Expertise, to compensate for your low AC. So in essence, your gaining nothing and losing a whole hell of a lot.

Now SoulGambit I have to disagree with that assertion that Improved Invisibility is a lie. Yes, a lot of things will have something that gives them See Invisibility, but most things won't have it on permanently. Also, never forget the Ninjas best friends, frontliners that know what they're doing. All you have to do is flank properly and axe the bastards, or better yet assassinate the squishy wizard. If the wizard spends his next round casting See Invisibility or True Seeing that means you already winning in the Action Economy.

Also you can be creative to regain Invisibility through various means (smokesticks least among them).

Lastly, if you want to do rogueish things, and you really have a thing for two-weapon fighter then just go Trapper Ranger. You'll do more and not gimp yourself as hard.

[Toirin]

I will look into the scout archetype. I wasn't sure if I could take them since it is technically a rogue archetype.

I'm with Bios on the Invisibility thing. Many of the big bads will have a way to see invisibility but I want to make them activate it or pay for it if they don't. I would also be actively attempting to flank, +2 more to hit is always nice and ensures that I keep sneak attacking.

I had considered doing a Tiefling TWF and since you recommend it so highly I will test it out and see how it goes. The initial reason I disregarded it was that I am already pretty feat hungry, so weapon finesse + TWF puts me a little bit behind in my build. I would be using enchanted weapons, I just didn't feel like going into that amount of depth. Also, I likely wouldn't be actively using combat expertise, it is mostly a feat in order to get other ones. I will however have the offensive defense rogue talent that would add +6 AC for a round after I hit a sneak attack.

[Vazt]

Stack scout with the half-Orc Skulking Slayer archetype. It is made for two-hander rogues. Then you are sneak attacking on a charge, rolling d8s when you do. Take cleave and surprise follow through to sneak attack the guy next to the guy you just hit. Gives a bonus to dirty trick and steal maneuvers. This is at the expense of your trap related skills and abilities, but you could still do trapspotting to see them and get creative on the springing.

[Lemmy]

Half-Orc is a damn good race for Rogues. They get proficiency with Falchions (One of the best 2-Handed weapons in the game. If not the best), Darkvision and +1 bonus to all saves. (Alternate Racial trait. Replaces Orc Ferocity. A great deal IMHO)

Furious Focus is particularly good for classes with medium BAB. Ignoring the penalty from Power Attack on your first attack is priceless. Weapon Focus is boring, but it's an easy way to raise your accuracy. Add Cornugon Smash and you'll be debuffing your enemies every time you attack! Intimidating Prowess makes this trick even more effective!

Ninjas don't have a real dump stat. They can't dump Con or Wisdom because they have terrible saves. (Which you should try to remedy. By 11th level, saves should be a priority. I suggest you grab traits that boost your Fort and Will saves, and at some point, grab feats that do the same.)

Oddly enough, you can dump Int without much problem, since you'd still have lots of skills and the class skill bonus compensates for the lower attribute, but who wants to play a dumb Ninja?

Ninja are a very MAD class, even more so than Rogues, but their cool Ninja Tricks also make them more effective..

Ninja Tricks I'd recommend are Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone, and their greater versions Ghost Blade and Shadow Split. See The Unseen is pretty very useful, and can save your life. Evasion is always nice for characters with a good Reflex save. Offensive Defense is pretty good too.

For skills, choose what role you want to be good at and pick skills accordingly. Ninjas can easily fulfill 2~3 skill roles all by themselves.
Other than the iconic Ninja/Rogue skills, there are a few others to consider. Linguistics is an underrated skill! It's awesome! It can be used to forge documents and grant you a +10 on Bluff checks! Since you will be grappled at some point, Escape Artist is a good call (BTW, save a feat for Defensive Combat Training).

Perception goes without saying, and UMD is incredibly powerful.

Oh, and forget about poison. Poison sucks. I know it's an iconic Rogue/Ninja thing, but most poisons cost too much and have terribly low AC. It's just not worth the effort.

Multiclassing 4 levels of Monk might be a good idea. Getting a bunch of feats, a huge boost to your saves and Wisdom-based Ki pool is amazing. Just remember you should take Monk/Ninja levels in multiples of 4, so that your BAB doesn't suffer.

[Toirin]

I like that Sacred Tatoo racial trait. As for your feat suggestions, I wasn't planning on going down the power attack route at all. Maybe at a higher level when I transition to more of a fighter (probably after lvl 12 since I would get evasion at that point). I will consider dumping int, it will likely still be decent becuase I rolled well. As for multi-classing into Monk, I don't think it is worth the +3 ki I would gain. The other benefits to being a monk would be wasted when compared to multi classing into a ranger or a fighter.

Here is a quick build following the same general path with a Tiefling character.

Race: Tiefling
Ninja 10 (scout archetype, also Knife Master if I can take 2 since they don't overlap/ Ranger 1 (better saves than fighter)

Str: 10 (starts at 12, -2 from tiefling)
Dex: 19 (16 +2 from race, +1 from lvl)
Con: 14 (13, +1 from lvl)
Int: 14 (12, +2 from race)
Wis: 12
Cha: 12 (14, -2 from race)

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, TWF, Weap Finesse, Moonlight Feint, Moonlight Stalker,

Tricks: Vanishing Trick, Trap Spotter, Black Market Comms, Offensive Defense, Invisible Blade

Note that I would have magioal items, I don't don't have the time to figure out exactly what I would pick at this moment.

[Toirin]

So after factoring in some magical items I have these stats for each respective build.

Half-Orc Scout/Skulking Slayer Archetype Ninja 11:
Atk: 14/9 (+2 when concealed)
Dmg: 2D4+9 (15-20x2) (+2 when concealed)avg: 14 not counting crits
Sneak attack: 6D6, 6D8 on a charge
Fort: 9
Ref: 13
Will: 7
AC: 23 (Elven Chain)
Health: +11 compared to other build
Bluff (for feint): 20

This assumes that I grabbed elven chainmail, a +1 falcion, +2 ring of prot, +2 amulet of nat armor, +2 belt of phys perfection,and cloak of resist +2. I have some other items but they don't really effect these stats much. I also switched the 12 and 14 stats around on the con and int.

Tiefling Scout/ Knife Master Archetype (assuming wakisashis count as a knife)
Atk: 14/14/9 (+2 when concealed)
Dmg: 1d6+1 (18-20x2)(+2 when concealed) avg: 4.5 not counting crits
Sneak Atk: 6D8
Fort: 7
Ref: 16
Will: 6
AC: 24
Health: See above
Bluff (for feint): 18

This assumes that the tiefling has 2 +1 wakisashis, padded armor +2, ring of prot +2, amu of nat armor +2, belt of incredible dex +6 (which I'm not sure I can afford with the rest of these items and I haven't done the math to confirm it or not), and cloak of resist +2

So in conclusion, unless someone else has something to add: I like the Half-Orc more. Sure, I have less DPS in the case where I get a full-round action, but I have a bit more versatility/mobility and I have more DPS on a charge or a move and attack round. Further, I have better saves and health. Also, I feel that the 1 point of difference in AC is negligible.

[Vazt]

On the half Orc build, if you wanted to make it goofy, I saw someone suggest swinging a heavy flail (alternate racial option) and taking sap adept (add 2x The number of SA dice rolled as non lethal damage so +12 in your case) and sap master (double the number of SA dice rolled when making non lethal attacks against flat footed). I think 12d8+24 non lethal sneak attack is a bit overkill, but it's there RAW.