Since I have mental problems I'm tossing around a gunslinger/monk backup character in a campaign I'm playing. Since I'd be using the gulch gunner archetype, which is literally melee gunslinging, I was wondering if the empty-hand monk archetype could let you do unarmed strike in a round and shoot, or even if you could use rapid shot to unarmed strike, pistol whip, then shoot.
I just want to know if it's even possible or not before I waste my time trying to figure out the logistics of building such a character.
You probably could flurry with the gun, but it would be treated as a different weapon. Alternatively, if you can get a deity with a gun favored weapon and take crusader's flurry you could flurry with a gun. Or you could have 6 levels of sohei.
Cixyron has the Musket as a favored weapon.
Of course, for a musket, you would need to be a musket master with alchemical cartridges to reload quickly enough.
I believe in order for a monk to use a weapon in his flurry of blows, the weapon in question must have the "Monk" quality. I don't believe any of the guns have that quality. So I don't think you can use one of your guns in a Flurry.
I hope this helps
Eh, that wouldn't work, since Lawful Good. Not to mention, can't take the gulch gunner and musket master archetype since they both switch out gun training.
Oh well.
Well, if you use it like a club, as a Monk of the Empty Hand, then that's the extent of what it would be for you.
ElyasRavenwood wrote: I believe in order for a monk to use a weapon in his flurry of blows, the weapon in question must have the "Monk" quality. I don't believe any of the guns have that quality. So I don't think you can use one of your guns in a Flurry. Nope, since the original question was about flurrying with the monk of the empty hands archetype, which can flurry with improvised weapons. It also treats all weapons as improvised weapons.
So sure, you can flurry with your musket, but it would be used more like a quarterstaff than any sort of ranged weapon. The real question comes up: would its enhancement bonus still apply if you smacked someone with it?
So far as I know, yes, the enchantment bonus would stack.
But if I can't actually, y'know, shoot someone with it, there's really no point to multiclassing in the first place.
Well, at least multiclassing for flurry. You still might enjoy having improved unarmed strike in order to threaten and all. Or continue with using your weapon in gun-fu through monk of the empty hand, because that seems cooler.
Other than crusader's flurry through the worship of a Daemon, you are a bit out of luck sadly. The best you can do for using your gun as a ranged weapon in a flurry is throwing it....and most usually reserve that for after they run out of bullets.
It seems pretty pointless, though, since the gunslinger archetype revolves around shooting adjacent enemies. I guess I could just get two weapon fighting but that's a helluva feat tax and kinda makes the monk levels pointless.
Maybe I should just talk to my gm and see if he can bs something in for me.
You can use a gun as part of a Flurry of Maneuvers since it isn't limited to Monk weapons.
Doesn't a flurry of maneuvers only count for combat maneuvers?
Nothing in the description of the class ability would lead one to believe that. Maybe if one only read the ability name and jumped to a conclusion, it would lead one to such an erroneous belief... but who does that on teh interwebz?
SRD wrote: At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows The bolded portion seems to indicate that it only allows for the making of extra combat maneuvers.
If you are a Sohei monk (like I said earlier) and take 6 levels & Weapon Training with guns you can flurry with them. Also, I believe that if you take 3 levels of weapon master fighter, then sohei, you technically can flurry with one gun, since you have weapon training, If you want the gun flurry sooner and to shoot in melee. Kazaan wrote: Nothing in the description of the class ability would lead one to believe that. Maybe if one only read the ability name and jumped to a conclusion, it would lead one to such an erroneous belief... but who does that on teh interwebz? You can flurry of manuevers with any weapon, but you still only get normal attacks and bonus combat maneuvers.
ArmouredMonk13 wrote: If you are a Sohei monk (like I said earlier) and take 6 levels & Weapon Training with guns you can flurry with them. Also, I believe that if you take 3 levels of weapon master fighter, then sohei, you technically can flurry with one gun, since you have weapon training, If you want the gun flurry sooner and to shoot in melee. I don't think so. Given the FAQ regarding Fighter bonus feat training being restricted to only bonus feats awarded via the Fighter's Bonus Feats ability (and not applying to Bonus Feats granted by any other class), it stands to reason that Sohei's ability to "flurry with any weapon for which he has Weapon Training" applies only to the Weapon Training offered by the Sohei class; for which Firearm isn't a valid option. I don't agree with it, mind you, because I think that cuts off the interplay between classes and it sort of flies in the face of a "+1 bonus to damage on Fire spells" from one caster class applying to fire spells given by a different caster class, as indicated in a separate FAQ, but there it is.
Kazaan wrote: ArmouredMonk13 wrote: If you are a Sohei monk (like I said earlier) and take 6 levels & Weapon Training with guns you can flurry with them. Also, I believe that if you take 3 levels of weapon master fighter, then sohei, you technically can flurry with one gun, since you have weapon training, If you want the gun flurry sooner and to shoot in melee. I don't think so. Given the FAQ regarding Fighter bonus feat training being restricted to only bonus feats awarded via the Fighter's Bonus Feats ability (and not applying to Bonus Feats granted by any other class), it stands to reason that Sohei's ability to "flurry with any weapon for which he has Weapon Training" applies only to the Weapon Training offered by the Sohei class; for which Firearm isn't a valid option. I don't agree with it, mind you, because I think that cuts off the interplay between classes and it sort of flies in the face of a "+1 bonus to damage on Fire spells" from one caster class applying to fire spells given by a different caster class, as indicated in a separate FAQ, but there it is. I don't think it stands to reason at all, as the sohei gains the same Weapon Training ability as a fighter. But I can understand your interpretation.
Well the Sohei says:
"At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. "
Since that doesn't include guns...
blahpers wrote: I don't think it stands to reason at all, as the sohei gains the same Weapon Training ability as a fighter. But I can understand your interpretation. FAQ wrote: Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?
Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.
You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/18/13
It may be "weapon training as the fighter class ability", but it's still taken with restrictions on what weapon groups you can choose; the actual Fighter class power has no such restriction. And, given the general design principal that classes are written with the presumption of single-classing (since trying to codify all multi-class interactions would be monumental and f##%tuple the size of the rule books), it stands to reason that if Sohei were allowed to use Weapon Training from other classes to qualify other weapon groups for flurry, it would have an explicit allowance for it. Since that allowance isn't there, you go to the default of "what happens in the Monk class stays in the Monk class".
And yet you can apply class-specific abilities to spells gained from other classes unless otherwise specified (e.g., wizard familiars can deliver cleric touch spells). It's not cut and dry.
Magic is expressly called out as the exception since it is such a limited resource what with the limited spells known and slots/castings per day. A Sorcerer's Bloodline bonus to Fire magic applies even to fire magic of other caster classes because of multi-classing caster classes. But in all other cases, such as "weapon training as the fighter class ability", when it says "Ability B relies on the function of Ability A" for a given class, it's talking about the Ability A given by that specific class/archetype rather than an equivalent from another class/archetype. It's cut and dry, it just involves several distinct cuts rather than just one.
Indrajit wrote: The bolded portion seems to indicate that it only allows for the making of extra combat maneuvers. You two are talking about two different things.
FoM allows 1 or more additional Maneuvers, but the rest of the Full Attack action can be Maneuvers, Regular Attacks, etc.
James Risner wrote: Indrajit wrote: The bolded portion seems to indicate that it only allows for the making of extra combat maneuvers. You two are talking about two different things.
FoM allows 1 or more additional Maneuvers, but the rest of the Full Attack action can be Maneuvers, Regular Attacks, etc. Wasn't trying to imply that the whole flurry was restricted to maneuvers, just that the additional "attacks" alloted by FoM are.
(Upon my initial reading, it appeared to me that the idea being communicated was running under the belief FoM with a gun could be utilized wholey the same as FoB, thereby bypassing the monk weapon limitation to make extra shots.)
Kazaan wrote: Magic is expressly called out as the exception since it is such a limited resource what with the limited spells known and slots/castings per day. A Sorcerer's Bloodline bonus to Fire magic applies even to fire magic of other caster classes because of multi-classing caster classes. But in all other cases, such as "weapon training as the fighter class ability", when it says "Ability B relies on the function of Ability A" for a given class, it's talking about the Ability A given by that specific class/archetype rather than an equivalent from another class/archetype. It's cut and dry, it just involves several distinct cuts rather than just one. Sorry, but without citations to back this up, your interpretation is exactly as good as mine. If you have such a citation (i.e., that this is the case for all similarly named abilities, and magic was intended to be the only exception), then by all means post it. Otherwise, you'll have to settle for being right rather than proving me wrong.
Imagine Jackie Chan with an empty gun, beating someone to death with it.
That's how you'd flurry.
blahpers wrote: Sorry, but without citations to back this up, your interpretation is exactly as good as mine. If you have such a citation (i.e., that this is the case for all similarly named abilities, and magic was intended to be the only exception), then by all means post it. Otherwise, you'll have to settle for being right rather than proving me wrong. It's right in the FAQ.
FAQ wrote: Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?
Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.
You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/18/13
---
Sorcerer: Do the bonuses granted from Bloodline Arcana apply to all of the spells cast by the sorcerer, or just those cast from the sorcerer's spell list?
The Bloodline Arcana powers apply to all of the spells cast by characters of that bloodline, not just those cast using the sorcerer's spell slots.
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)
—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10
It's really rather straight-forward; Spellcasting bonuses are applied across classes because taking levels in multiple caster classes has a huge derogatory effect because of how Caster Levels are determined. Other class bonuses are limited to their own class because of the aforementioned presumption of single-class abilities to avoid having to write umpteen billion more rules governing different combinations of classes with allowances and exceptions.
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I'm not arguing that "bonus feat" everywhere means the fighter's bonus feat option. "Bonus feat" is more than an ability name; it's also a separate game term, and it's clearly used as the latter pretty much everywhere. "Weapon training", unqualified, has exactly one meaning in the text as far as I've seen so far, and that is "the ability that gives you X bonuses to a group of weapons (see the Fighter ability)". Even if there were other uses of it, sohei covers itself quite nicely with the phrase "as the fighter class feature".
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because they could have been clearer, and instead it's open to interpretation, but now I think you just want to argue. You can't possibly think there's no way to interpret the text other than the way you do.
blahpers wrote: I'm not arguing that "bonus feat" everywhere means the fighter's bonus feat option. "Bonus feat" is more than an ability name; it's also a separate game term, and it's clearly used as the latter pretty much everywhere. "Weapon training", unqualified, has exactly one meaning in the text as far as I've seen so far, and that is "the ability that gives you X bonuses to a group of weapons (see the Fighter ability)". Even if there were other uses of it, sohei covers itself quite nicely with the phrase "as the fighter class feature".
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because they could have been clearer, and instead it's open to interpretation, but now I think you just want to argue. You can't possibly think there's no way to interpret the text other than the way you do.
There are many ways to interpret things... but the wrong ways vastly out-number the correct ways. The point of analysis is to determine the most correct manner of interpretation. I do very much want to argue because, when there are two mutually exclusive interpretations, they can't both be right so it serves no one's best interest to leave the issue unattended. Thus, I analyse the matter, come to the most logical conclusion I can, and present it. If no one can come up with a valid counter-point, it increases the likelihood that my interpretation is accurate. If someone does come up with a counter-point, I analyse it to determine whether it is valid or not and try to come up with a counter to the counter-point. Here, I've clearly and unambiguously countered the counter-point. The two FAQs I provided clearly illustrate the design intent, even if it doesn't lay it out in explicit terms on a silver platter. Generally speaking, benefits to spellcasting cross class barriers while other class benefits remain segregated unless explicitly stated otherwise. Things like Sneak Attack expressly state how they stack between classes so that is a specific exception to the general rule. Those are the exceptions that prove the rule; there'd be no need for Sneak Attack to ever denote that multiple classes with Sneak Attack stack crosses class boundaries if that were a given. But when Sohei is allowed to Flurry with weapons he has Weapon Training with, even though it uses the phrase "as the fighter class ability", that's a statement of congruence rather than a mechanical statement of equitability. It means, to get the details of how the class ability functions, refer to the Fighter class ability of the same name. Nothing more, nothing less. This occurs in other places as well; such as classes that allow you to Channel Energy "as the Cleric ability" but still cuts you out of certain benefits only available to actual Clerics, such as variant channeling. So, when a Sohei gets the ability to Flurry with any weapon he has Weapon Training in, it carries the presumption of a single-classed Sohei Monk not benefiting from Weapon Training from any other class so the Weapon Training it's referring to is the Sohei's Weapon Training which is limited to specific weapon groups. The Sohei is going to train with polearms in a much different way than a Fighter would and both of them will train with a given weapon group differently than how a Myrmidarch Magus will train with them. Mechanically, all different training will give you the same numeric advantages, but in terms of class ability interaction, only the Sohei trains with polearms in such a manner as to flurry with them. It could even be argued that a Sohei with Polearm Training from either Fighter or Myrmidarch wouldn't be able to flurry with Polearms because he didn't take the training through his own class, but we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
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