Here is a weird idea: I have a monk/magus character.
Say I took the hexcrafter archetype and chose prehensive hair (UM p. 81) for my hex.
Can I make unarmed attacks with my hair?
My understanding is no, because the monks description says: "A monk’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet." Hair is not listed. (I wonder why...)
But I remember people says that a monk can attack with any part of their body. Is that just inprecise remembering of the text, a wider interpretation of the above passage, or it that officially written somewhere?
If it worked, it would obviously be great, the hair uses Intelligence instead of Strength for attack and damage and has 10 ft reach...
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This is a natural attack not an unarmed strike.
You would follow all the rules for characters trying to have their bite/claw/beak or whatever attacks work with Monk abilities.
This requires weapon focus (natural attack), feral combat training (natural attack)
Even then damage would still be as listed for the hair not the unarmed strike damage.
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A beak attack that a tengu gets is a natural weapon, yet a tengu monk can make an unarmed strike as a headbutt (mine does) and get unarmed strike damage and flurry. I see no reason why you can't get the hair, a natural weapon on the end of a part of your body that is essentially a limb, to punch things (or kick or however you want to say it).
A beak attack that a tengu gets is a natural weapon, yet a tengu monk can make an unarmed strike as a headbutt (mine does) and get unarmed strike damage and flurry. I see no reason why you can't get the hair, a natural weapon on the end of a part of your body that is essentially a limb, to punch things (or kick or however you want to say it).
In order to use your secondary natural attack as part of a flurry you would need to take the feat Feral Combat Training. It would still not use your unarmed strike damage, it would do its 'normal' damage and have reach, however.
The reason you cannot so it is in the monk write up, natural attacks aren't allowed to be mixed in with a flurry. That is why they made the feat.
If you want to make an unarmed strike with your hair and its mechanically identical to an unarmed strike with your elbow, foot, or whatever then I doubt anyone has a problem with it.
However, if you want to take advantage of the properties (reach, damage die, damage type etc.) of a natural weapon then it ceases to be an unarmed strike.
It is clear that you cannot just mix effects of the unarmed strike and natural attack. The question is: Can I ignore the natural attack and use the extra limb for the unarmed strike as if it had no natural attack? The prehensile hair gives you both a limb with reach AND a natural attack...
Similar to as if I gained a third 10-feet arm with a claw natural attack, I could ignore the claws and just use the arm for my unarmed strike. Like if I have claws, I can freely decide to use claws or unarmed strike with my other hands.
No, your hair is not a limb with 10' reach. Limbs do not have reach in Pathfinder. Attacks have Reach. And the hair is a natural attack with reach.
The thing is, though, one feat fixes it all for you: Feral Combat Training.
That said, I can't see the purpose of this Magus/Monk combo--you can't Flurry with Spell Combat, so what's the point of taking two classes whose primary draws don't combine?
No, your hair is not a limb with 10' reach. Limbs do not have reach in Pathfinder. Attacks have Reach. And the hair is a natural attack with reach.
I am not convinced that is true. Usually creatures have reach, independent of their attacks. The prehensile hair description does not primarily talk of it as a natural attack, that is just one feature next to being able to manipulate objects that also works as a reach of 10 ft. But I agree that it is a very special case.
The feat surely is nice, since it e.g. allows you to get 1 1/2 times your strength (in this case intelligence) on unarmed hair attacks if that is your only natural weapons. But I am unsure whether a monk can attack with the limb, not how to use the natural attack with unarmed strike, strange as that distinction may be...
That said, I can't see the purpose of this Magus/Monk combo--you can't Flurry with Spell Combat, so what's the point of taking two classes whose primary draws don't combine?
Oh, to me, spell combat isn't the primary draw of the magus. Keep in mind that a hexcrafter gives up Spell recall, so my spells per day are more limited anyway. I frankly woldn't have enough spells to use spell combat most rounds. No, the normal attack option would be the good old full attack.
But there are some very nice things you can do with unarmed strike and reach, for example if you are fighting a melee-attacking opponent that has no reach, you can trip him, use Ki Throw to drop him 10 ft off and then back away as a 5 feet step. He can get up, but not attack you, since you are 15 ft away and out of his reach. Stuff like that. Sure, you can do the same with simply casting Enlarge Person on yourself, but the hair would be way more stylish.
Although I admit that I am primarily interested in that combo because I like fistfighters and arcane spellcasters the most, so I want to be an unarmed arcane spellcaster.
Prehensile Hail would go a long way towards ofsetting the Magus MAD problems: My attack bonus could almost keep up with a fighters if I can use intelligence instead of strength, the Arcane Pool ability to increase my weapons enchantment can offset my 3/4 BAB.
But as I said, giving up Spell Recall is tough, that's between 6 and 14 additional spell levels I'd be giving up. Probably not worth it.
The ability tells you what it does, give you a secondary natural attack with a set damage and reach. It says you can hold things with it. It says it cannot be targeted seperately from you.
Nowhere does it say you can make unarmed strikes with it.
Any reasoning you try to apply to make it able to do anything beyond that is going into house rules. We don't need to convince you that you cannot do it, because the ability doesn't say you can do it.
Obviously talk to your GM to try to convince them to allow it, but RAW it doesn't work that way short of using FCT to let you sub in the natural attack as if it were a monk weapon for each attack in the flurry.
OT: FCT wouldn't allow you to bypass the flurry rules stating you get to add STR to the attack.
OT: FCT wouldn't allow you to bypass the flurry rules stating you get to add STR to the attack.
Actually, the hair HAS a strength score equal to your intelligence, so that's not the problem.
But I'll drop the concept anyway, price seems to high to me. Still, would have looked cool.
OT: FCT wouldn't allow you to bypass the flurry rules stating you get to add STR to the attack.Actually, the hair HAS a strength score equal to your intelligence, so that's not the problem.
But I'll drop the concept anyway, price seems to high to me. Still, would have looked cool.
Let me rephrase, Flurry states when you make an attack you get to add your STR mod, that there is no 'off hand' (so no 1/2 STR mod on any of the attacks). The fact that it is your only natural attack typically gives you 1.5 STR mod, but Flurry states otherwise. The ability stating you use your INT mod as your STR, doesn't mean anything in this regard.
Let me rephrase, Flurry states when you make an attack you get to add your STR mod, that there is no 'off hand' (so no 1/2 STR mod on any of the attacks). The fact that it is your only natural attack typically gives you 1.5 STR mod, but Flurry states otherwise. The ability stating you use your INT mod as your STR, doesn't mean anything in this regard.
Ah, I may have misinterpretated what you said. You are saying that when furrying, I would add my Int (in place of my strength) instead of 1 1/2x my Int? I agree with that.
I thought you said flurry would use my original strength instead of my Intelligence. For that I see no reason.Hmmm. The concept IS cool, visually. Perhaps I'll retrain to this at a higher level, when I have feats free for Feral Combat Training and get Spell Recall instead of Improved Spell Recall.
And another question I stumbled upon:
If a hexcrafter magus with prehensile hair (or someone else with a natural weapon that has 10 feet reach) casts Enlarge Person, is it true that his hair reach does not improve? His hair has 10 foot reach, and Enlarge Person gives you "a natural reach of 10 feet". Are there rule somewhere that add those together, or do his fists only catch up with his hair?
And another question I stumbled upon:
If a hexcrafter magus with prehensile hair (or someone else with a natural weapon that has 10 feet reach) casts Enlarge Person, is it true that his hair reach does not improve? His hair has 10 foot reach, and Enlarge Person gives you "a natural reach of 10 feet". Are there rule somewhere that add those together, or do his fists only catch up with his hair?
It wouldn't stack or increase any, the ability gives a set reach.
If a large sized hexcrafter were to take the ability it would still just be 10' as that is what the ability grants.
To do what you are asking the ability would have to say something to the effect of the reach being increased an additional 5' or as if they were a size category larger, etc.
It is clear that you cannot just mix effects of the unarmed strike and natural attack. The question is: Can I ignore the natural attack and use the extra limb for the unarmed strike as if it had no natural attack? The prehensile hair gives you both a limb with reach AND a natural attack...
Similar to as if I gained a third 10-feet arm with a claw natural attack, I could ignore the claws and just use the arm for my unarmed strike. Like if I have claws, I can freely decide to use claws or unarmed strike with my other hands.
Similar, but not the same. The hair doesn't have muscles, sinews, or bones. It's either a length of rope attacked to your head, or it's a magically animated length of rope that happens to be attached to your head. From that point of view, it's no more a limb than an animated rope is a limb.
I agree it would be cool though, but I'd treat hair as a weapon, not a limb. If it was a weapon you could flurry with, then that'd work!